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It All Comes Back To Anxiety


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#1 brzghoff

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 04:12 PM

 

i have realized during my quest to find relief from the discontinuation symptoms that everything i feel is a result of anxiety. i've done a lot of research (okay, "googling") and have discovered that muscle aches, joint pain, sinus pressure, dizziness, light headedness, shortness of breath, racing heartbeat, nightmares, gastrointestinal issues, nausea, vomiting, the runs and of course the well known tightness in the chest and fear, worry and panic are ALL associated with anxiety! i am sure i've forgotten many more. even those bizarre razor slicing sensations on my shins! 

 

maybe i'm the last one to realize this and everyone reading this is going "yeah, no duh!" ;-)

 

of course, these symptoms can also be indicative of other serious disorders, but they are all symptoms of anxiety as well! so the bottom line is that discontinuation syndrome causes anxiety, which in turn manifests itself as a kaleidoscope of distress.  

 

for me that means my total focus towards healing is to address the anxiety. there are various meds, prescription and OTC as well as nutritional support and natural supplements - what works for us is a matter of a trusted physician's guidance, prudence and personal choice. there is also the benefit of healing through cognitive behavioral therapy as well as mindful and meditative exercises/practices. 

 

several weeks ago i found a great web site that was the perfect intro to mindful practices that i have not been able to find again. it is not any of the one's i've shared previously in this forum. however, i am providing a link to a .pdf that comes in a close 2nd.

 

http://sf-act.com/do...rces_harris.pdf

 

feel free to offer your own methods of suppressing or otherwise dealing with anxiety

 
 
 
 
 
 

#2 fishinghat

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 06:42 PM

You hit it right on the head Big B.


#3 Amysgarden

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 07:30 PM

So very true! CBT is definitely very helpful. Aside from the brain zap thing and the parathesia, everything else is total anxiety.

#4 brzghoff

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:54 AM

 

i would like to update something i said in my above post, i've had an epiphany

 

i wrote: "so the bottom line is that discontinuation syndrome causes anxiety, which in turn manifests itself as a kaleidoscope of distress."

 

the better way to have expressed it is: "...the bottom line is that discontinuation syndrome exposes the underlying anxiety​…"

 

​i have come to realize that the anxiety is mine. i own it. i developed the irrational thinking that can lead to anxiety while i was on the C, but it deadened my emotions enough to where i didn't "disturb" myself to the point of developing anxiety. i know that CBT has helped me tremendously in dealing with my depression, which is why i was taking it. but i don't think i realized what i still had left to work on because the C covered it up. once i weaned off… ta da! there's the anxiety. i guess what i am trying to clarify here is that if i am going to heal, its not about waiting for it to go away over time. cymbalta was complicit in preventing me from healing because it hid this anxiety from me. while i didn't have a history of anxiety prior to taking anti-d's i did have a history of irrational thinking (hence depression). 18 years is a long time, anti-d's prevented me from feeling emotions, good and bad, so i didn't even know what i was doing to myself - developing thinking patterns that can trigger anxiety. kind of like how pain killers can mask symptoms - the dentist gives me novocaine so i don't feel the drill. if he finishes and then the novocain wears off - you're gonna feel the pain go away - usually by the end of the day but if he is still drilling the pain ain't going way until he stops. 

 

its up to me to turn off the drill, and that is what i am working on now. i feel so free just expressing this here


#5 fishinghat

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 12:46 PM

Big B, I would say that statement is correct in most cases but not in all. Some anxiety is the result of side effects of medicines or due to medicine interactions.

 

There are many on this site who were given Cymbalta for diabetic neuropathy, arthritis, migrains, post surgical pain, etc with NO prior history of any previous psychological issues, Once they come off the Cymbalta they are left with anxiety that can last for months before tapering off. Obviously not previously existing anxiety but anxiety due to chemical withdrawal.


#6 Bethhalffull

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 06:32 PM

There are theories of the physiology of withdrawal that indicate that the disruption of the brain's serotonin management by ssri medication results in an over stimulation of the fight or flight reaction. This looks like anxiety (or is anxiety?). Check out beyond.meds.com/2011/07/28/ssriprotractedwithdrawal/

Does it matter in terms of managing the symptoms for ourselves? Probably not, but it may be helpful to see that at least some of this mess is physiological and not our "fault" and may moderate with the brain healing itself.

I saw a new shrink. She recommended Vayacog, for anxiety, a supplement compound of Omega 3 and phosphatidylserine. It is officially recommended for early stage cognitive decline. When I investigated the second ingredient it is supposed to limit cortisol. I am not sure whether I will actually fill the prescription, or just add phosphatidylserine to the krill oil I am already taking, and try to reproduce the percentages of the ingredients. The omega 3's are very low in the Vayacog.

Actually her first choice for me was Prosac. I have not given up hope that my brain can heal itself, and I am not willing to start abusing it again yet. I have been off for almost a year.

#7 brzghoff

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Posted 09 November 2014 - 08:11 PM

regardless of the "cause" you are right, managing the symptoms remains the same. i hope no one ever thinks anxiety, no matter what the reason, is their fault, or anyone's. 

 

with time, the healing comes - but it is definitely in our own best interest (and sanity) to learn to challenge what we tell ourselves - especially as a means of managing our anxiety. its the only thing that's worked for me. sometimes relief comes day by day or sometimes just hour by hour


#8 Bethhalffull

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Posted 10 November 2014 - 07:16 AM

http://beyondmeds.co...ctedwithdrawal/is the link from my previous post that should actually work.

#9 ittybittysmitty

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:36 PM

My pdoc gave me an rx for Concerta for my ADD but it's backfiring today big time, causing me severe agitation and anxiety...i would rather have the brain fog on until things get better...this anxiety is no picnic.

I have suffered from anxiety as a separate diagnosis and have been on antiD's for years.

One therapy I've benefited from is DBT...it incorporates mindfulness and was designed by Dr. Marsha Linehan for people with Borderline personality disorder...so i better get going on it.

#10 ittybittysmitty

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 12:39 PM

Oh,Brzghoff, I forgot to respond to your original post about how anxiety creates other symptoms...i have most of these symptoms and have been anxious that i have something wrong...for example, bladder spasms, that would be irritable bladder..i guess that's caused by anxiety huh? it call comes back to the mind body connection in my opinion.

Can you please post a link to some of your research on this? Much appreciated;o)))

#11 brzghoff

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Posted 18 November 2014 - 08:20 PM

Oh,Brzghoff, I forgot to respond to your original post about how anxiety creates other symptoms...i have most of these symptoms and have been anxious that i have something wrong...for example, bladder spasms, that would be irritable bladder..i guess that's caused by anxiety huh? it call comes back to the mind body connection in my opinion.

Can you please post a link to some of your research on this? Much appreciated;o)))

 

your best resource for lots of the research is fivenotions who works for a grad student. she is doing research for him. the student's doctoral thesis is on anxiety.

 

 

while the info is out there, anyone who has experienced anxiety recognizes these symptoms. We also know that we share quite a few of these symptoms with others who suffer anxiety. for example, we know anxiety makes us tense. think about the impact tension has on us, headaches, muscle aches and pain, high BP. anxiety makes us scared, we know shaking is a classic symptom of being scared. think of the classic saying "never let them see you sweat" it shows you are nervous or anxious. as for irritable bladder, i found this link http://www.muschealt...ive_bladder.htm. there are many articles that link anxiety and irritible bowel syndrome, IBS. 

 

here are a few respective to anxiety and physical symptoms http://www.adaa.org/...phobia/symptoms and http://http://panicd...IandAnxiety.htm

 

 

 

the following i learned in high school physiology, college classes in abnormal psychology and childhood psychological disorders, my psychiatrists and therapists.

 

when we are stressed, our hypothalamus (in the brain) triggers the production of cortisol (a hormone) that is responsible for our fight or flight response. the purpose of that reaction is for self preservation. for example you are threatened by an attacker, an immediate mental stressor. that reaction - initiated by a mental "thought", a perceived threat - causes a physical response by the brain which signals a gland on our kidneys to produce cortisol which initiats that fight or flight - the strength/energy to get away (flight) or "fight" the attacker. often either of those responses are preceeded by a "freeze" - the deer in the headlights response. keep in mind, the initial trigger is a thought - something we tell ourselves. if you perceive something as a threat, your body responds that it IS a threat. however, we rarely need that fight or flight response as did our ancestors and those in the animal kingdom who flee predators higher up on the food chain on a daily basis.

 

what happens to all that cortisol when we aren't really fighting or fleeing? it wreaks havoc on our bodies. that's what creates belly fat the visceral fat deposited around our major organs. muscle pain, high BP, memory loss and the other symptoms we all know and love are a result of the excess cortisol not being used to run away or beat the heck out of our perpatrator. physical exercise is GREAT for reducing anxiety.

 

we are still capable of setting up that stress/hypothalamus/cortisol physical reaction that creates the fight or flight response by telling ourselves something is terrible or bad or awful or that we "can't stand". very often we don't recognize we do this and can't figure out why we feel stressed or anxious. when we start the withdrawal process with cymbalta, the serotonin and norepinephrine levels fall since the drug is no longer in our system. our brains aren't managing our cognitive processes as they did when we were on the drug. our brain's ability to supress the reuptake of these neurotransmitters (allowing for higher levels in the brain) will return as the withdrawal diminishes. until then, we have to recognize what is real and what is not. our brains arent firing on all cylinders so to speak so we have to be careful about what we tell ourselves - do we have real evidence that what we tell ourselves is true?  

 

i believe that is when i have become vulnerable to what i tell myself. i get overly sensitive, take things more personally, become irritable, angry and anxious. these are emotions that i develop due to my perception of events - real or imagined. if my husband says something "i think" is disrespectful, i will react  - often overreact, getting upset and stressing over the thought that our relationship is falling apart. that would be "awful" and i "couldn't stand it". what i am telling myself is that my relationship is "threatend" - thats the mental trigger, my hypothalamus responds. here comes the cortisol and the anxiety kicks in. the more i react similarly when my husband and i disagree (fight? argue?) the same reaction ocurrs and it soon becomes a "habit". at this point i can develop anxiety and not even realize it or recognize from where it comes. i wake up in the morning and i'm already anxious. really its a habit - the fear of fear. its imperative i challenge what i am telling myself and change my thinking.  if my husband and i disagree/fight/argue it does not mean my relationship is coming to an end. it means we are not getting a long and its best if we work on that. if i tell myself i "can't stand it" or i "can't help it' or i "won't get better" - quite simply i won't. so i refuse to tell myself that. i refuse to let the anxiety beat me down. if you think that's a light weight example, maybe i'll tell you about my "the basement walls are cracking, the're going to cave in and we're all doomed" story another time. 

 

by the way, for more on cortisol here are a couple links

 

http://www.psycholog...blic-enemy-no-1

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortisol

 

these were easy to find. feel free to do your own "googling"


#12 brzghoff

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 02:45 PM

i learned another "cure" for anxiety... the flu. its taken me out right now, but i don't feel anxious, just tired, fever, achy - the real flu, not withdrawal. ;-) 


#13 TryinginFL

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:44 PM

Brz,

 

I'm sorry to hear about your flu..

 

That's a heck of a way to get rid of the anxiety - couldn't you have found something less debilitating?? :P ;)


#14 kathyms3150

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 03:46 PM

Brz, sorry that you have the flu, but glad to hear that you don't have anxiety. I pray that it stays away. xxx

#15 gail

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 04:54 PM

Brz, hello,

My first thought when I read your post, from yesterday,was, we got a Fishinghat number two here.

And I like your refusal of thinking the worst.

I admire that. We need to hear about this often. Reminds me of Thismoment, never get tired of repeating that in your posts Brz.

Take care of that flu, always a pleasure to read you.

#16 gail

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Posted 19 November 2014 - 04:57 PM

Brz, basement walls, I hope not to miss this one!

#17 brzghoff

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 12:50 AM

felt a lot better today/friday - and sure as shootin', the better i felt physically the more the anxiety tried to creep in like a fox back to the hen house when the farmer goes back to bed. the pain and discomfort is a distraction from anxiety. all the more evidence for me that if i don't give it energy with irrational thoughts, it can't get a foot hold. 

 

i first noticed it when i learned friday my mom wants me to make the ambrosia for my dad's birthday brunch sunday. have you ever made ambrosia? you have to section oranges and grapefruit and remove the membrane while leaving the flesh intact. 9 oranges and grapefruit! i am a good cook, but don't have the fine motor skills to master that. its very labor intensive. when i noticed my heart was in my throat over facing this task i realized how ridiculous i was being - so i made a deal with myself. i agree to buy the bottled del monte citrus already peeled and sectioned (i hate prepackaged processed food) and in return i will stop disturbing myself over the thought of having to make the ambrosia - which is what's creating the anxiety.  okay deal. chest pounding with irrational fear i forced myself to the grocery and got the bottled citrus, fresh pineapple and even swallowed my pride and bought the freakin' bright red artifically flavored and colored marachino cherries. that's traditional but i would rather use fresh cherries but they didn't have any. i couldn't find natural shredded coconut that i could toast, so i had to settle for the sugared baker's coconut that has propylene glycol in it. why the heck do they have to put that stuff in food? its in my shampoo for cryin' out loud! however, i REFUSE to put marshmallows in it. all over the internet all the recipes put marshmallows in it. not me, that's where i draw the line.

 

after accepting that i didn't have to make an all natural additive free ambrosia my anxiety deflated considerably by the time i got home. i later found a recipe that doesn't use coconut or cherries but does use avocados, celery, cukes, basil and jalepeno with a buttermilk dressing - all served over arugula. i thought that sounded great but i dont know if anyone else would like it. definitely not traditional. ;-)

 

as for the basement story - will have to save that for another time. 


#18 TryinginFL

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Posted 22 November 2014 - 11:32 AM

Brz,

 

Sorry to hear that the anxiety is still plaguing you to that degree.  So what if the fruit isn't the fresh type?  I would do the same....too much work the other way and no need for all that anxiety!

 

You need to do what's best for you - remember, be kind to yourself!

 

Hope your family has a great day tomorrow! 

 

(Still looking forward to that basement story!  ;))


#19 gail

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Posted 23 November 2014 - 10:40 AM

Brz,

Pain is a distraction from anxiety. You are right on that.

And I have no physical pain. At times I wish that I did to get my mind off this f****g anxiety.

Bon dimanche, also looking forward to hear about the basement thing.
Surely can't beat the one about the dog eating your teeth! Hilarious it was indeed.

#20 brzghoff

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 03:06 PM

Brz,

Pain is a distraction from anxiety. You are right on that.

And I have no physical pain. At times I wish that I did to get my mind off this f****g anxiety.

Bon dimanche, also looking forward to hear about the basement thing.
Surely can't beat the one about the dog eating your teeth! Hilarious it was indeed.

 

 

Bon Lundi!

 

started to write about the basement anxiety last night, but it got too long winded and the story digressed into a technical bore. will have to approach that another time. 

 

however, it is not i who had the teeth eating dog. i have my teeth and have no dog! that was shady lady (cymsik) who wrote that hilarious story. she is wonderfully creative and that post deserves to be in the cymbalta withdrawal hall of fame!


#21 FiveNotions

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 07:30 PM

OMG, Brz ... ambrosia ... oh, be still my heart ... how I looooove that stuff .... and I love your solution to the "ambrosia anxiety" ;)


#22 brzghoff

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 09:51 PM

welcome back FN!

 

i used the bottled citrus, which was amazingly fresh and good - ruby red grapefruit, yellow grapefruit and oranges. not bottled in syrup, just sugar water. its sold chilled, not on the shelf. i mixed in fresh pineapple, bananas (instead of coconut) and fresh raspberries (instead of maraschino cherries) when i set it on the buffet i served the coconut and cherries in bowls on the side to be spooned over the top as desired. those who like that stuff can have it, but i ended up not having to compromise my "standards" (am i full of myself or what?) when i challenge the stupid stuff i try to tell myself (I must make it fresh from scratch!) i end up being able to make sane decisions. i even surrendered to adding the processed coconut and cherries, recognizing that its just a freakin' salad - but in the end, found a work around that was doable and was acceptable to me. believe me, i've taken myself out for a week over ridiculously silly self talk. i am learning not to give anxiety power by feeding it my negative chatter. everything doesn't always have to be my way. sometimes circumstances get to win. and in the end... i won anyway!

 

it was a wonderful birthday celebration. dad is 88 and sharp as always. strong too - still taking down trees in the back yard with his chain saw! (i wish he wouldn't do that)


#23 FiveNotions

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Posted 24 November 2014 - 10:13 PM

88 and still playing with chain saws? wow! now I'm seeing where you get your "piss and vinegar" !

 

I remember ... vaguely .... having that "gotta' do it perfect" streak that your ambrosia story describes ... my first ... and only decent/wonderful therapist ... taught me how to "cure" myself ... she told me that since I felt I "had to be perfect" ... that I should focus on being perfect ... "perfectly mediocre" .... she said she figured that trying to be perfectly mediocre would keep me focused, and given what a type A perfectionist I was, I'd just end up "relaxed and average" ...but sometimes now I think I actually did achieve "perfectly mediocre" ... my "give a shit quotient" often seems to have darn near flat-lined :P


#24 brzghoff

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Posted 08 January 2015 - 08:45 PM

JM,

 

the lying awake and ruminating - so familiar! years before i ever went on anti-d's i would do that and didn't even know that was anxiety! i would toss and turn thinking that professionally i was a big fraud and that i would be "found out". in the morning it was like, what the heck was that? it wouldn't happen all the time, and i wouldn't lay awake all night - but it was very strange. when it would happen was during a time when i worked in a very fast paced stressful environment. it wasn't until years later that i developed classic symptoms of depression and ended up on anti-d's.

 

what is it about anxety and night time? while i can get it at anytime of day, its most often in the evening - right after sundown. 

 

i remember you saying before that what you thought was depression was actually anxiety all along. they certainly go hand in hand -  a chicken/egg thing. sounds like you have a good grasp of what works - the hard part for me is not the knowing, but the doing! my work is focused primarily on the irrational thought - for me, its not real important that i know why i think my husband is "disrespecting" me - what is important for me is to recognize that what he thinks is not under my control - but how i react to him is. once i've developed a rational way of reacting to his behavior - which often means no reaction at all, i soon realize how silly i was to think he didn't respect me. he was just having a bad day, or i didn't hear him correctly - or sometimes, maybe he was a jerk, but so what? there is no evidence that means he doesn't love me. 

 

while not specific to anxiety, here is a link to a pamphlet book on dealing with frustration published by the REBT Network. it's a great read. same basic cognitive principles that you would use to deal with anxiety. i've posted about this lsewhere, but here it is: http://www.rebtnetwo...rustrations.pdf


#25 FiveNotions

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 02:34 AM

Brz, that is, at least in my opinion, an absolute must read ! I downloaded it and am going to read through it slowly and thoughtfully ("mindfully") ... my one excellent therapist, years ago before the advent of the "magic pills" and the demise of CBT as a "first line" treatment, taught me some of what I noted in it as I scanned through ... and I'm eager for, and in need of, a "refresher course" ....

 

Many thanks for posting it!





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