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Official Protocol For Withdrawal From Cymbalta


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#1 DonMH

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    My wife is suffering from major Cymbalta withdrawals.

Posted 24 September 2012 - 11:57 PM

[attHALTING SSRIs

DAVID HEALY MD FRCPsych

N WALES DEPT of PSYCHOLOGICAL MEDICINE



SSRIs



SSRI stands for selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. This does not mean

these drugs are selective to the serotonin system or that they are in some

sense pharmacologically “clean”. It means they have little effects on the

norepinephrine/noradrenaline system. There are 8 Serotonin reuptake

inhibitors on the market:


UK Trade Name US Trade Name

Fluoxetine Prozac Prozac

Paroxetine Seroxat Paxil

Sertraline Lustral Zoloft

Citalopram Cipramil Celexa

Escitalopram Cipralex Lexapro

Fluvoxamine Faverin Luvox

Venlafaxine Effexor Efexor

Duloxetine Cymbalta Cymbalta


Venlafaxine in doses up to 150mg is an SSRI. Over 150 mg it also inhibits

noradrenaline reuptake. Duloxetine is a potent serotonin reuptake inhibitor but

not selective to the serotonin system.


WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS


SSRI withdrawal symptoms break down into two groups.


The first group may be unlike anything you have had before:

Dizziness – “when I turn to look at something I feel my head lags behind”.

Electric Head -which includes a number of strange brain sensations –


“its almost like the brain is having a version of goose pimples”

Electric Shock-like Sensations – Zaps – like being prodded with a cattle prod

Other Strange Tingling or Painful Sensations

Nausea, Diarrhoea, Flatulence

Headache

Muscle Spasms/ Tremor

Dreams, including Agitated Dreams or other Vivid Dreams

Agitation

Hallucinations or other visual or auditory disturbances

Sensitivity to noises or visual stimuli


The second group are symptoms which may lead you or your physician

to think that all you have are features of your original problem. These include:

Depression and Anxiety – these are the commonest 2 withdrawal symptoms

Labile Mood – emotions swinging wildly

Irritability

Confusion

Fatigue/ Malaise – Flu-like Feelings

Insomnia or Drowsiness


Sweating

Feelings of Unreality

Feelings of being Hot or Cold

Change of Personality


More generally there is an intolerance of stress.


Any difficulties present may wax and wane and this can be demoralising.


IS THIS WITHDRAWAL?


There are three ways to distinguish SSRI withdrawal from the nervous

problems that the SSRI might have been used to treat in the first instance.


First if the problem begins immediately on reducing or halting a dose or

begins within hours or days or perhaps even weeks of so doing then it is more

likely to be a withdrawal problem. If the original problem has been treated and

you are doing well, then on discontinuing treatment no new problems should

show up for several months or indeed several years.


Second if the nervousness or other odd feelings that appear on reducing or

halting the SSRI (sometimes after just missing a single dose) clear up when

you are put back on the SSRI or the dose is put back up, then this also points

towards a withdrawal problem rather than a return of the original illness.

When original illnesses return, they take a long time to respond to treatment.

The relatively immediate response of symptoms on discontinuation to the

reinstitution of treatment points towards a withdrawal problem.


Third the features of withdrawal may overlap with features of the nervous

problem for which you were first treated -both may contain elements of

anxiety and of depression. However withdrawal will also often contain new

features not in the original state such as pins and needles, tingling sensations,

electric shock sensations, pain and a general flu-like feeling.


Before starting to withdraw, it should be noted that many people will have no

problems on withdrawing. Some will have minimal problems, which may peak

after a few days before diminishing. Symptoms can remain for some weeks

or months. Others will have greater problems, which can be helped by the

management plan outlined below.


Finally however there will be a group of people who are simply unable to stop

whatever approach they take. Some others will be able to stop but will find

problems persisting for months or years afterwards. It is important to

recognise this latter possibility in order to avoid punishing yourself. Specialist

help may make a difference for some people in these two groups, if only to

provide possible antidotes to attenuate the problems of ongoing SSRIs such

as loss of libido.


HOW TO WITHDRAW


If there are any hints of problems on withdrawal from SSRIs, the management

of withdrawal is something to be done in consultation with your physician. You

may wish to show this to your doctor. Over-rapid withdrawal may be

medically hazardous, particularly in older persons.


Many doctors suggest you withdraw by taking one pill every other day for a

few weeks before stopping. There is no guideline that advocates this or

evidence that supports it and the approach is misguided.


One of the first steps to consider is getting a liquid formulation of your

antidepressant. This can be done by asking your doctor to approach the local

primary care pharmacist who can make an application to one of the specialist

companies such as Martindale’s or Rosemount that can make up a liquid

formulation of almost any antidepressant you might be on – see below.


There are 2 theories about what leads to dependence and withdrawal that

dictate slightly differing management plans.


One theory is that the relatively short half life of paroxetine and venlafaxine

make these two drugs more problematic. This leads to a withdrawal strategy

that advocates switching from paroxetine or other drugs to fluoxetine.


The second is that paroxetine and venlafaxine are relatively more potent

serotonin reuptake inhibitors and this theory leads to a switch to less potent

serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as citalopram or one of the older

antidepressants such as imipramine.


Either approach is facilitated by having access to treatment in liquid form.

Paroxetine, fluoxetine and imipramine come in liquid form and anyone having

difficulties with withdrawal should insist on access to the liquid form of

treatment or either these or a special formulation of the drug they are on.


The Half-Life Approach


1A Convert the dose of SSRI you are on to an equivalent dose of Prozac

liquid. Seroxat/Paxil 20mg, Efexor 75mg, Cipramil/Celexa 20mgs,

Lustral/Zoloft 50mgs are equivalent to 20mg of Prozac liquid. Or 40 mg of

Paxil/Seroxat to 40 mg Prozac. The rationale for this is that Prozac has a very

long half-life, which helps to minimise withdrawal problems. The liquid form

permits the dose to be reduced more slowly than can be done with pills.


Some people may become agitated on switching from Paxil/Seroxat to

fluoxetine in which cases one option is take a short course of diazepam until

this settles down. Whether this agitation is caused by fluoxetine or because

for some people the substitution simply cannot be made may be difficult to

determine. If the agitation gets better when the dose of fluoxetine is reduced


then its more likely to be caused by fluoxetine, if it gets worse, then it is more

likely to be linked to withdrawal.


1B A further option is to convert to a liquid form of whatever drug you are

on. Many people cannot change easily from paroxetine tablets to fluoxetine

and switching to paroxetine liquid may do the trick instead.


1C Yet another option is to change from paroxetine to a mixture of half the

previous dose in the form of paroxetine and the other half in the form of

fluoxetine, and then to reduce the dose of paroxetine gradually.


The Reduced Potency Approach


1A Taking this approach, the best option is to change to Imipramine

100mg. This comes in 25mg and 10 mg tablets and also in liquid form. It is

the first serotonin reuptake inhibitor. It is much less potent than the SSRIs,

and has been used widely for children for a range of problems.


1B As above another option is to have a mixture of 50 mg imipramine with

10 mg paroxetine or fluoxetine.


Next Steps


2 Stabilise on one of these options for up to 4 weeks before proceeding.


3 For uncomplicated withdrawal, it may be possible to then drop the dose

by a quarter.


4 If there has been no problem with step 2, a week or two later, the dose

can be reduced to half of the original.


Alternatively if there has been a problem with the original drop, the

dose should be reduced by 1 mg amounts in weekly or two weekly

decrements.


5 From a dose of fluoxetine 10mgs liquid or tablets or imipramine 10mg

tablets or liquid, consider reducing by 1mg every week over the course of

several weeks -or months if need be. ( a syringe is helpful in reducing the

dose evenly).


6 If there are difficulties at any particular stage the answer is to wait at

that stage for a longer period of time before reducing further.


Complexities of Withdrawal


Some people are extremely sensitive to withdrawal effects. If there are

problems with step 1 above, return to the original dose and from there reduce

as tolerated.


Withdrawal and dependence are physical phenomena. But some people can

get understandably phobic about withdrawal particularly if the experience is

literally shocking. If you think you have become phobic, a clinical psychologist

or nurse therapist may be able to help manage any phobic element.


Self-help support groups can be invaluable. Join one. If there is none nearby,

consider setting one up. There will be lots of others with a similar problem.


An alternate approach is to substitute St John’s Wort or an antihistamine for

the SSRI, as these both have serotonin reuptake inhibiting properties. If a

dose of 3 tablets of St John’s Wort is tolerated instead of the SSRI, this can

then be reduced slowly – by one pill per fortnight or even per month or by

halving tablets.


If withdrawal problems appear to ease off and then come back, it is worth

checking whether this was because the affected person was co-incidentally

treating themselves with something like St John’s Wort or an antihistamine.


Some people for understandable reasons may prefer this approach. But it

needs to be noted that St John’s Wort and the antihistamines come with their

own set of problems.


While SSRI withdrawal may not be a problem for some people, for others it

can last months and indeed years – possibly 2-4 years. Even if it endures for

months/years, it does seem likely to clear up in the long run.


In the case of enduring problems, being active is probably important. An

enduring problem is likely to be underpinned by some brain change that can

only be reversed by encouraging activity in that brain area through physical

and mental activity. Gentle but regular exercise and involvement in activities

rather than withdrawal seems more likely to stimulate silenced brain areas

back into life.


If it seems impossible to withdraw and the option is to stabilise on an SSRI for

the foreseeable future, at this point there is no clear indicator as to whether

there is a best SSRI to stabilise on. In terms of ongoing problems paroxetine,

sertraline, venlafaxine and duloxetine are associated with a high frequency of

problems on withdrawal and on this basis seem poor fall-back options.

Fluoxetine is associated with proportionally the greatest frequency of reports

of drug seeking or “addictive” behaviours, and is problematic from this point of

view. By default this leaves citalopram as a fallback option.


FOLLOW-UP


Companies have tried to label withdrawal problems as discontinuation

problems or discontinuation syndromes, because of the negative perceptions

linked to the term withdrawal.


The problems posed by withdrawal may stabilise to the point where you can

get on with life. But whether it is or is not possible to withdraw, it is important

to note ongoing problems and to get your physician or someone to report

them if possible to the appropriate bodies – such as the FDA/MHRA. New

health problems such as diabetes or raised blood lipid levels may have a link

to prior or ongoing treatment. If your doctor won’t report these problems, you

should if you live in a place where this can be done.


There are clear effects on the heart from SSRIs and from some there are

likely to be cardiac problems during the post-withdrawal period. Such

problems if they occur should be noted and recorded. SSRIs can also

increase the risks of haemorrhage, especially if combined with aspirin, and of

fractures.


SSRIs are well-known to impair sexual functioning. The conventional view

has been that once the drug is stopped, functioning comes back to normal.

There are indicators however that this may not be true for everyone. If sexual

functioning remains abnormal, this should be brought to the attention of your

physician, who will hopefully report it.


Withdrawal may reveal other continuing problems, similar to the ongoing

sexual dysfunction problem, such as memory or other problems. It is

important to report these. The best way to find a remedy is to bring the

problem to the attention of as many people as possible.


Pregnancy


The single most important group who need to be aware of all these issues are

women of child-bearing years. A very large number of pregnancies happen in

an unplanned fashion and are several weeks advanced before the woman is

aware of the situation. SSRIs, and paroxetine in particular, are now clearly

linked to a number of problems in pregnancy, among which are an increased

frequency of birth defects, an increased rate of miscarriage, premature birth,

low birth weight, a neonatal withdrawal syndrome and pulmonary

hypertension in the newborn infant.

One of the biggest problems of SSRI dependence involves women who are

on treatment and unable to stop who wish to become pregnant. Getting off an

SSRI at present seems more difficult for women than men, even with the

incentive of wishing to become pregnant.


1. Rosemont Pharmaceuticals (Tel 0113 244 1999)

These prepare large batches (so may be cheaper) for:


Amitriptyline 10mg/5ml, 25mg/5ml, 50mg/5ml

Lofepramine 70mg/5ml

Mirtazapine 15mg/1ml

Venlafaxine 75mg/5ml

Sertraline 50mg/5ml

Dosulepin 25mg/5ml, 75mg/5ml


2. Cardinal Health, Martindale (Tel 0800 137 627)

This manufacturer will usually prepare what you ask for, so if the antidepressant isn't in the

above list opt for this.


Large chain pharmacies like Boots or Rowlands may have their own external supplier who

they may prefer to use as they have a contract with them..


achment=12:David Healy Withdrawal Protocol 2009.txt]


#2 8yrs2long

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    Stuck on Cymbalta 8 years, desperately want off but suffer significant withdrawal symptoms. Also stuck on Lamictal and need off! Looking for advice and support! Also hoping to offer some of both!

Posted 27 September 2012 - 11:22 AM

This is the first medically supported withdraw plan I have ever seen! I am so thankful for the posting. I have printed it to share with my family as well as doctor so no one thinks my w/d reactions are evidence of my being a nutcase!

Having gone down to a half dose for two days (60mg to 30mg), my intolerance to noise, major anxiety and anger, as well as dizziness - forced me to increase to 3/4 of the old dose today.

I will experiment with St. John's Wort as well as the antihistamine.

My issue is two-fold. I have been on Cym for 8 years, imagine this will make my w/d among the tougher cases? My insurance company will not cover Cym so I am trying to make 14 pills last through the duration of my detox. Clearly stupid plan. I have a ton of Effexor from 8 yrs ago on hand. It is wise to substitute the Effexor along with Cym until the Cym is gone, and then reduce Effexor?

Separately I began Lamictal/Lamotrigine in addn to the Cymbalta more than a year ago when I complained of Cymbalta concerns and wanting to get off of it. Can I reduce both at once? Lamictal has been a night mirror. If I am 2 hours late on a dose, I get so faint, dizzy and flaky. I just can't think straight and feel drunk. I haven't found a healthy detox plan for this one. I did reduce 25% of this a week ago and haven't noticed a difference, but am concerned trying to come off of two drugs at once, though I want my mind back and believe both a contributing to the brain fog and memory deficits!!!

#3 DonMH

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Posted 27 September 2012 - 10:41 PM

Hi
My name is Don. I am so sorry to hear how long you have been on this drug. I have suffered major depression since university, 40 years ago and I am luckily now stable on Sertraline 200mg/night. I lived and worked in the Uk until 9 years ago, when we moved to B.C., Canada.I was a Senior biochemist and I spent several years in A Regional Toxicology Laboratory and the rest doing blood work on patients, analysing the results, teaching technicians and medical students.. I have a colleague in London and I will ask this friend about the Effexor for you and if there is a protocol for Lamictal. I will let you know as soon as I hear. There is a drug called Periactil which is used in the UK to help patients come off Cymbalta. I do not know what it would cost. Your physician could write to your insusance firm and request that Cymbalta is covered because of the major withdrawals effects. I will email you some links that I have been sent. Have you someone who can count out the beads in your capsules and reduce them by 1/10 per day. You must not take Effexor and Cymbalta at the same time;it can be very dangerous. Prozac will work as you come off Cymbalta at the end rather than Effexor.
The bad news is Lamictal is almost as bad to come off. Do not try and come off both at once. I will try and find out more.
Hang in there; it's not you - it is this horrific drug - they are still advertising it on TV in Canada!! I have had to edit some of the information as my sources must not be traced.
God bless you - i wil keep you in my prayers
DonMH


-

This is the first medically supported withdraw plan I have ever seen! I am so thankful for the posting. I have printed it to share with my family as well as doctor so no one thinks my w/d reactions are evidence of my being a nutcase!

Having gone down to a half dose for two days (60mg to 30mg), my intolerance to noise, major anxiety and anger, as well as dizziness - forced me to increase to 3/4 of the old dose today.

I will experiment with St. John's Wort as well as the antihistamine.

My issue is two-fold. I have been on Cym for 8 years, imagine this will make my w/d among the tougher cases? My insurance company will not cover Cym so I am trying to make 14 pills last through the duration of my detox. Clearly stupid plan. I have a ton of Effexor from 8 yrs ago on hand. It is wise to substitute the Effexor along with Cym until the Cym is gone, and then reduce Effexor?

Separately I began Lamictal/Lamotrigine in addn to the Cymbalta more than a year ago when I complained of Cymbalta concerns and wanting to get off of it. Can I reduce both at once? Lamictal has been a night mirror. If I am 2 hours late on a dose, I get so faint, dizzy and flaky. I just can't think straight and feel drunk. I haven't found a healthy detox plan for this one. I did reduce 25% of this a week ago and haven't noticed a difference, but am concerned trying to come off of two drugs at once, though I want my mind back and believe both a contributing to the brain fog and memory deficits!!!


#4 8yrs2long

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    Stuck on Cymbalta 8 years, desperately want off but suffer significant withdrawal symptoms. Also stuck on Lamictal and need off! Looking for advice and support! Also hoping to offer some of both!

Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:36 PM

Hi Don - I greatly appreciate your response. I will heed your warning regarding the combining of Effexor and Cymbalta. I have to report that I have been maintaining the reduction which I began 5 days ago now. I will not reduce the Lamictal any further for a while. Just received my 90 day refill. I am down 1/3 of that pill. How risky is it that I am simply breaking the pill and guessing?

I don't have anyone counting the Cymbalta beads. I may do that myself beginning tomorrow. I have been simply eyeballing the amount trying to just take half the amount per day. I must say - I am actually doing ok. Though it's funny, when I'm in a solid state of mind - it's difficult to recall the more difficult periods of the day. Swear that has been my history on Cymbalta. Must journal to understand the daily routine.

After reading everything I could on the weaning process, I've been following this routine for the past 3 days and feeling kinda crappy mid morning, hyper, possibly a little manic by afternoon, but than awesome by evening:

Qty of 3 (980mg) Omega 3's (Nature's Bounty Max Strength 1400mg Fish Oil) I may increase to qty 4 for a total of 980X4=3910mg Omega-3
B-100 High Energy Complex Vitamin (Costco/Kirkland brand)
180mg Antihistamine (Costco/Kirkland brand Aller-Flex Non-Drowzy Allergy pill)

I'm not sure if I should be taking the supplements and antihistamine on a better schedule, with or apart from the Cymbalta and Lamictal?? I'm wondering if any of the pills might be interfering with the digestive process of the others?? I have always experience some problems taking the Cymbalta and Lamictal together. I have to begin with Lamic approx 30min following breakfast (taking before or too quickly after makes me flighty and foggy!). I get a similar feeling when I take both Lamic and Cym together so I wait an hour or so before taking the Cym. So when should I take the supplements and antihistamine?

I really do feel like this has been a pretty good withdrawal period, as I've tried so many times to go off of Cymbalta in the past only to NEED the drug to function.

On a final note, due to a rush out the door to kid's soccer - I was extremely late getting the Lamictal and Cymbalta Saturday. I was so hyper/manic for several hours. I couldn't quit talking. Felt parents watching me for being so overly into the game - cheering on 6 yr olds as if it were a World Cup. I came home and took (the reduced amts) of both pills and just had to decompress away from the family in a dark room. Just SUCKS that these drugs that are supposed to help cause this! I ended up feeling so depressed and slept a couple hours. I took me until mid evening to feel normal again. I just had such spinning, dizziness, really it kind of makes me feel intoxicated in a very bad way. I stutter and cannot think for anything - very pronounced during the manic period.

So - any advice on how I am trying to do this is greatly appreciated. I will work toward the 10% reduction in beads going forward. Will spend tomorrow morning counting like a little actuary!

You're a wealth of information, likely thanks to your experience in chemistry!!

#5 DonMH

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

Hi
Thanks for the info - you seem to be doing really well. Try and take your supplements at meal times - there is another one you can try Swanson Ultra Herbal Extract Memory Complex which contains a special herbal remedy which helps with memory and brain zaps. i have just ordered some for my wife.
Try eating full fat yogurt and take active acidopholus (not sure if i spelled it right). this will help with any digestive problems. Vitamin D (the cheapest one you can find will also help if you take it every day). You can increase your fish oil up to 6 capsules per day - this will help enhance brain function.
My wife is having major problems with dizziness and balance and she cannot handle even the slightest sound - it feels like a hammer drill in her head. Since coming off the Cymbalta, she has seemed more intolerant and slightly aggressive. She keeps wanting to yell at the other patients on the ward to "Shut the F**K up". As she was one of the first women priests in the UK, this is slightly out of character!!. She is on Prozac which is helping to replace the Cymbalta. Is it possible to email you privately?
When I had my major breakdown ,I was in a residential psychotherapy unit for 10 months. On my wall I had a poster which the nurses could not read as it was written in Latin. It read :
"Noli carborundum illigitimi" which translated into simple English reads : "Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down" ! I still have it as a screensaver!
Hope this helps
Don



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