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4 Weeks Since The Last Dreaded Little Pill.


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#1 Backontrack

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:02 AM

I'm sorry if this isn't the right place to post but it's one of those evenings where I need to scoop my brain out on screen before I'll be able to get some rest.

Over 12 months ago I decided to start weaning of Cymbalta, mainly because I had a rather long and painful emotional breakdown and I found that Cymbalta was no longer easing any symptoms. This was after around 3 years of taking 60mg daily.
It started with gradual tapering from 60mg to 30mg before I had to start counting little white pellets (We don't have 15mg in Australia and there wasn't a Doctor in sight that had any helpful suggestions for weaning)

I bookmarked this site a long time ago and just read, then I researched and read some more and oddly enough I found the suggestions here to be more helpful, as well as the sense that I was far from being alone in this.

12 months of tapering, the brain jolts, the tears, and the temperand I finally reached a stage where I managed 4 days without headspins, I finally decided it was time to ultimately cease taking Cymbalta. That was 4 weeks ago so naturally everyone is starting to suggest that I shouldn't be feeling worse for wear anymore, it should be "out of your system" by now.

Thing is, the physical side effects have subsided but there's still a sense of panic just beneathe the surface and the fear that this is me, no cymbalta, no SSRI's, just pure old panicy me and I'll never feel normal again...
The rational voice in me assures me this is just an adjustment period but it's all too easy to rattle me at the moment and I'm the best at circular thinking whilst self-depreciating.

I guess aside from a vent I was curious as to where others are up to and if anyone has ceased taking Cymbalta only to have continued feelings of anxiety and depression?
 


#2 Wagtail

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 06:46 AM

Hi Backontrack, it's the CRAPALTA CHEMICALS trying to trick you into reinstating .....

I was on 60 mgs Cymbalta for 10 yrs & stopped over a short period of a couple of months .. It's been 6 months now & I have more good days than bad ones but I still have some fear / anxiety & days of moderate depression .
With the help of some wonderful people on this site I have managed to hang on & ride the emotional waves , there were days where I seriously contemplated going back on some type of antidepressant but when I felt like that I would log on here & someone would explain to me that this was a side effect from withdrawel .
This site is amazing & you will get all the support you need to recover ...it takes time & you will have relapses but just knowing what is happening helps so much .
Fishinghat will probably post soon & give you the confidence to continue on your journey to get better.

When you feel scared or weak just log on & read through all the relevant posts & you will find your answer .

Good Luck.

#3 thismoment

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:35 AM

Backontrack

 

Welcome!

 

Don't worry, your story is familiar, and you will get through this.

 

". . . everyone is starting to suggest that I shouldn't be feeling worse for wear anymore, it should be "out of your system" by now."  And it is "out of your system"- it was 99% out of your system 5 days after your last bead. After you over-indulge with alcohol it's out of your system within hours, but your body still needs a day or two to self-repair, and you may not feel 'normal' for several days. Same with Cymbalta- you're 4 weeks out, and you are suffering the standard Discontinuation symptoms.  

 

Have your critics read some of this forum, and they will turn into supporters.

 

Everyone is affected differently, but you could anticipate 8 to 12 weeks of symptoms- with some damned uncomfortable days. After 3 months things begin to pick up, and you should begin to see light at the end of the tunnel. Stay with it, as it could take a number of months beyond that with some up, and some down days. (Wagtail can tell you about that).

 

There could be temptations to re-start Cymbalta or a different antidepressant, and doctors may try to encourage just that: many physicians may not view your symptoms as discontinuation, but rather a new condition- like perhaps fibromyalgia. It's not uncommon; be patient.

 

Keep the anxiety down the best you can, as that can be the big de-stabilizer. Have a benzo or similar on hand for AS NEEDED.

 

Best wishes! Before you know it you will be posting your successes and helping others get through.


#4 Xanazul

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 09:00 AM

Yours is one of the most horrible fears we all have (I am now) experienced:
Is this Cymbalta withdrawal and therefore I will go through it as long as it takes knowing that my normal life is waiting for me at the end? OR
Is the returning of the old dreaded state of mind and body, there is no hope for recovery and I would have to live with it for the rest of my life?

It is an arduous question to answer.

Me and my circumstances:
*50 years of "normal" life. Even more than normal, I must say it was happy for long periods and I when I was not, never felt life wasn't worthwhile living anyway
*Terrible breakdown ten years ago=PTSD
*In and out of small doses of ssri, with almost no side effects+counselling and long periods of wellbeing
*Retraumatized before the previous process wasn't healed.
*Finally Cymbalta (plus two more drugs) two years ago
*Ten weeks off all of them.

And now what?

I surenly do expect the physical symptoms to disappear.
Anxiety and depression?
I am begining to accept the possibility, that as many other medications we use for mind and body, Cymbalta is a symptomatic, not an etiologic medication.
Therefore as the wounds in the body are not healed by painkillers, the wounds of the soul are not healed by anxiety/depression killers for same as painkillers, antidepressants eliminate the symptom while (hopefully) the mind wounds heal spontaneously or aided by therapy, changes in life circumstances, family and friends love.... or else if the wounds are not healed, the pain reappears (along with the withdrawal effects) once the painkiller (Cymbalta in our case) is removed.
Is there any hope then?
Yes, I do believe there is hope. We need to look for the ways to heal our wounds, for the pain (depression and anxiety) to disappear. And, these ways do exist, because our brain is a wonderful machine that can be repaired and rebuilt and because most of us have the tools to do the repair.

After all this what is my answer to the question that torments you?

Most probably your wounds are healed and you are only experiencing withdrawal effect.
Bur if this is not the case, and although this possibility is discouraging and scaring, don't be affraid for there is still hope for recovery and for living in peace the second part of your life.

#5 Wagtail

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:00 PM

Wow Xanazul , well articulated .... Thank you ...:-)

#6 Backontrack

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 01:17 AM

Thank you so much Xanazul, Wagtail and thismoment, it gives me hope that this is still early days and just to try and be patient (not a natural trait for me).

I'm 28 years old and have been medicated on and off for the past 10 years, anxiety came as a real blow for me given my history was largely around depression and I was somewhat comfortable in the downward spiral, sleeping as often as I could and avoiding any sense of social contact. It was difficult because there was nothing obvious to trigger the onset, I was bullied in school but it didn't seem to be the main issue.
In 2004 my father was diagnosed with a terminal illness, we were estranged so it put strain on the relationship and what little healing could be achieved over the following 4 years until he passed away, three weeks later my partner of three years left me for his colleague so it was out on my own,
I worked until I started losing jobs because I was starting to lose my grip, I developed fatigue so resorted to taking frequent amounts of speed to get through the work day, I'd go home and either drink or smoke weed until repeating the cycle the next day.

Naturally I hit the bottom, lost my job, the place I was renting and parted with most of my belongings, I moved back in with my mother and started from scratch. Once the effects of self medicating wore off I started working towards getting off cymbalta. I was lucky enough to have a couple of therapists (differnt times due to how counselling is structured here) who really helped me in terms of mindfulness and CBT, I started to feel human again and regained a sense of self esteem.

The intrusive thoughts are just horrible, mean spiteful little bastards, it's been years since I've self harmed and yet these past few weeks I hear the suggestion, underneathe the conscious level, assuring me it'll make the acidic feeling go away. I know better than to try and play out the suggestion but again it all comes back to just praying I come out the otherside a stronger person.
These forums have given me comfort over the past 12 months, especially where I realise just how lucky I was with this entire ordeal, I haven't experienced the soul-defeating crash that many have described, more of a teetering on the edge kinda panic.

Sorry if sentence structure isn't all that great, along with the sweaty hands and jitters, I appear to have lost my ability to articulate in writing.


#7 FiveNotions

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 03:41 AM

hello BOT....I'm having one of my bad sleep nights ...and, when I do, I check in here to see if anyone else is doing the same ....you're on the other side of my world, so perhaps it's your daytime ...anyway, what you have written resonates with me...and, while to you, as you write "from your inside looking out," it may feel/read and inarticulate....but to me, reading from your outside, looking it, I understand what you're saying and it makes much sense to me.... thank you for sharing this!

 

I had my own period of self-harm during my teen years...because I felt that I was the cause of some family problems, that if I'd been a "better more perfect person" they wouldn't have happened.....so, I tried a bit of cutting ... and it relieved my internal pain...but just temporarily....and then I was left with the same pain plus the guilt of having done it and the shame of hiding that I'd done so ...that stopped pretty much after I got on the first antidepressant...Wellbutrin, which I still take ...

 

I ended up on Cymbalta by sad medical error ...a psychotic episode caused by generic Wellbutrin ...it messed even further with my relationships with myself and others ....and now I seem to be going through another "healing spurt" post Cymbalta ....now that most of the physical sufferings have faded, I'm left with the recognition that the underling issues I had been working on when I was put on the crap are still there ...they weren't healed, they were just patched over, and poorly at that ....it has dawned on me this past week that I, who have "prided" myself on being a forgiving person, am actually carrying around a long list of hard feelings and resentments and angers at people dating all the way back thirty years and more ...So, being a Catholic, I've also embarked on my "forgiveness project" ...I'm talking with a priest about this and with his guidance, I am praying for each of those persons, asking God to grant me the Grace to forgive them, release them and to Bless and prayer for them....and also that He grant them forgiveness, release and a Blessing towards me....It's taking some real effort on my part ...and each time that I let go of a hard feeling, I feel a corresponding relief/release inside myself and a lessening of my anxiety, fear and guilt...

 

Tonight I've been having trouble sleeping not due to the usual worry, guilt or fear ... but because I feel fresh and clean and quiet inside, in a way that I haven't felt since before Cymbalta....

 

Just tonight I realized that I need to put this same effort into forgiving myself....there are several thinks I have done in my life that yes, I did confess, and received formal absolution and penance...but I didn't really accept the Priest's true import ....that the Lord had, for once for all, forgiven me....and I was released...I continued to feel unworthy of that forgiveness ...even from God ...and even after He had forgiven me....big load, a very big load....well, tonight I had a good long cry about all this ....a cry that never would have or could have happened while I was drugged up on Cymbalta....the cry freed me up enough that I was able to look deeply and honestly at myself, and ask ME to forgive ME, to Bless and pray for Myself, and to release my self hatreds over what I'd done...not done ... during the dark years on Cymbalta...

 

The immediate sense of relief and release, and self-acceptance was powerful ....and I'm going to make this forgiveness project a daily practice ...beginning with each person that comes to my attention, and ending with a continued foregiveness prayer from myself to myself...

 

Now I'm the feeling like I'm not articulating well ... but, I just needed to share this here, with my dear forum friends ...

 

Thank you all, forever and beyond, for being here, listening to my efforts to express myself, and encouraging me to continue to heal ...


#8 Backontrack

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:03 AM

Thank you so much for sharing FiveNotions, I really appreciate your feedback and thoughts!
I personally parted ways with relgion several years ago after having been raised as a Catholic, but I have a profound respect for religion and faith in general and very much understand the need to seek forgiveness (whatever our higher power be) and most importantly, forgive ourselves.

I struggled and still struggle a lot with being more forgiving of myself, every slight mistake used to result in years of guilt, replaying the moments until every last second had been broken down and I was convinced I was a monster.
I personally find my faith through other people, especially those who are religious, there's an energy and love that radiates from those who are at peace with themselves and God and I find it rubs off on me.
I work helping people with dibilitating mental illness' by helping them seek support through various means, be it therapy or other forms of healing, ironically as empathic as I am towards others it resulted in me despising myself, how dare I complain or feel sorry for myself when there are so many others in need?

 

God is love, God is forgiveness and what ever donomination we follow, how ever we pray, we need to trust in the high powers that we are good people. We're not without our flaws, we're not without our sins (I know I'm not) but the fact that we are open to learning, to growth and even daunting change, we carry on. More importantly (and this forum is evidence) we can go through hell and still show love and compassion towards other people, considering how draining mental illness is, that's a rare strength.

I spend most of my work days motivating others whilst supporting them, it's only really recently that I've started to try and apply the same reasoning to my own life. I'm a flawed human being but I do my best to learn from my errors and forgive myself after reflecting on what I can do differently.
There are still days where I tell myself I'm a decent human only to have that little voice argue that I'm worthless, but the more I say it the more it feels less.... strange.

The sleeplessness is absurd, it's not so bad at the moment that it takes forever but it certainly does a number on my energy levels at the best of times. Thismoment recommended benzo's for the extreme times but unfortunately they're under strict regulation in Australia, as are a lot of medications (ironically not the ones that seem to cause the most harm)
I've focussed mainly on "checking in", mentally noting that I have my jaw clenched, my hands are clenched, shoulders hunched and muscles tense, I try my best to relax each tense area while breathing slowly and deeply. It does help to relax physically but trying to block instrusive thoughts when trying to sleep is the bane of so many people.
 


#9 thismoment

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 07:45 AM

FiveNotions

"Tonight I've been having trouble sleeping not due to the usual worry, guilt or fear ... but because I feel fresh and clean and quiet inside, in a way that I haven't felt since before Cymbalta...."

How wonderful!! This isn't just light at the end of the tunnel- it's DAYBREAK! Your healing brain arrived at this peace, and it can do it again- and hopefully for all day and for evermore.

 

May this be your lotus blossom day.


#10 thismoment

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:18 AM

Xanazul

Excluding physiological causes like DNA and disease, it seems reasonably clear that  anxiety and depression are event-based. And surely the cure is necessarily event-based. If anxiety and depression are behaviour-related-- unless the medication promotes positive behaviour modification (often it promotes strong negative behaviours, like rage, and depleted emotional capacity)-- you will emerge from the drug very much as you went in.

 

Is remission a reasonable expectation based solely on the use of the medication? I wonder what the science shows on this question.

I agree this is why we combine medication and psychotherapy: the drug attenuates the symptom, but behaviours (neural defaults) need to be altered to preclude triggering the anxiety or depressive event in the future. Therefore, we need to become somebody whose behaviour doesn't trigger those events.

 

Assuming we do modify our default behaviours, is this then foolproof? I don't think so, but simply understanding the mechanism goes a long way toward helping us move forward.

 


#11 Clara

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:06 AM

Thanks for sharing FN and BOT!


#12 xman

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:12 AM

Ditto-TY for sharing. BOT you are far wiser than your years! TM you always make me think-in a good way. You all are solid gold.


#13 FiveNotions

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 12:55 PM

heheh....well, the emotional release I had last night really was therapeutic ...hadn't had a good long cry (not hysterical) in quite some time ....and I was able to do a lot of much needed thinking and forgiving... unfortunately, that wired me up so then I didn't fall asleep until about 4 this morning ... slept until 11 a.m., and am now way behind in everything I needed to do today ... but, I've got my "honey-do" list here next to me, and will plug away at it .... I let everything, absolutely everything, slide....not just during the worst of the withdrawal, but for all the years I was on the poison .... hell, I just discovered that I may not have filed tax returns for several of those years....they owe me refunds, so maybe they won't haul me off to the slammer ....but it sure is humiliating having to make the phone calls and admit all this ....

 

I keep finding more piles of crapalta poop to clean up .... :huh:


#14 Clara

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Posted 14 May 2014 - 01:30 PM

Keep shoveling away, FN! Bl :)essings for all!!!


#15 Backontrack

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:22 AM

I find myself wanting that intense emotional release and it feels like it's just under the surface but it'll be something incredibly small that will eventually set it off, I'll cry for a fair while, then I have the best sleep ever, crying replaced self harm, it's a far easier and healthier form of release and I must admit I'm becoming a master even with non-waterproof mascara!

Reading through all the differnt posts here has really helped these past few days, especially when trying to put words together to try and explain the process to family and friends, they've been extremely understanding but that's years of work involving them in the therapy process and preparing them for what I might go though.
My Mum used to believe that it was all mind over matter, when I tried to abruptly stop Cymbalta whilst still living on my own she realised the real impact, three days and I was a complete mess, but she supported me when I moved back home and has toned down her own temperamental ways to accomodate my fluctuating moods.

 

I'll be visiting these forums frequently over the next few weeks I imagine, and I hope to be able to support others the way they have supported me, it restores faith in humanity :)


#16 Clara

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:15 AM

Yay, BOT! Please do keep us posted and share your stories of recovery! We never know how our story, no matter how weird or tough it may be, is going to help someone else! Prayers and hugs! :)


#17 FiveNotions

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:21 AM

What a wonderful post, BOT!

Yes, please stick around ....keep posting ... Successes and struggles.....beating cymbalta is a group effort, and you're part of the group!

#18 xman

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Posted 15 May 2014 - 10:37 AM

Indeed we need to know about the success and the struggles to kp. moving forward. Part of the journey...


#19 sodone61

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 01:19 AM

FN - Some might argue that anxiety and/or depression is biochemical, but I'm leaning very strongly toward your view that they are -for the majority of us - event-based.  They may even events that occurred many moons ago, maybe even childhood or a series of foibles that we are beating ourselves up with (that's me) and now scared to face the real.current me.  Was I that dishonest, selfish person who did those things?  Or was I acting out of old preservation behaviors that are no longer needed? Or both?

I am working on self-forgiveness but I realized - since I was stuck in bed due to the withdrawal - I had time to learn more about myself and my "depression".  I got out some of my old motivational books and studied them.  I watched anything positive or motivational.  I called supportive friends (when I was able) and wrote when possible.  Most times reading and TV was the best I could do and that was in fits and starts. The tough times were when the anger and low tolerance during withdrawal came on and I just couldn't deal with anyone. This forum helped me give myself permission to not force myself out of the house when I was too overwhelmed.  I'm still working on forgiving myself.


#20 thismoment

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 08:06 AM

Sodone61

 

Good morning.

 

Two things: First, we live in a universe of cause and effect, where events are precipitated from other events; and second, you did not build your mind.

 

So at minimum, you are not responsible for the behaviour that emerged from your mind as a child. Therefore there's no need to forgive the innocent child that was you. That's perhaps a decade and-a-half for which you can bear no guilt- no forgiveness required! 

 

We exist on the leading edge of our history; how could it be any other way? 

 

Innocence, guilt, culpability, forgiveness, responsibility, and intent. We use these words regularly, and we are deeply fond of them- but they are for the most part, abstractions. And that means we must apply our own meaning to each word for it to make sense.

 

Take guilt- if during withdrawal you found yourself with anger and an inability to deal with others- are you guilty of anything? I don't think so, and I chose a snapshot of your brain that you certainly didn't assemble and therefore couldn't possibly intend. To me, guilt is linked to intent.

 

Socio and psychopaths aside for the moment- intent is learned from prior events. But I think sociopaths can be created through emulation, and also possibly via behaviour modification while on antidepressants.

 

In the case of a serial killer, while he did not build his mind, he must suffer society's consequences for his acts. We may never know why he intended to kill those people, or where in his history that intent came from, but we do know he must be removed from our society for the security of every other citizen.

 

Forgiveness- now there's an abstraction that can stop us cold! "I must forgive myself for behaving that way." I can't even imagine how that inner conversation would go! Does it mean just forget about it? Can't do that. Does it mean we should punish ourselves for eternity? That one's popular! The answer has to be in embracing the concept of cause and effect, and the fact that we did not intend the mind we have.

 

To me, forgiveness is found in committing ourselves to create the kind of future that we won't regret. Life starts right now. We can't time travel into the past to modify events, but we can affect events that are to come by what we do today.

 

History builds our minds, and we create history in every moment.


#21 fishinghat

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:01 AM

Sodone 61, as has been suggested the brain is altered by experiences, good and bad, especially repetative experiences. These experiences 'condition' us to react certain ways to certain stimuli. The way it does that is by altering our neural pathways (nerves). These nerves emit neurotransmitters which carry signals to the brain. Therefore these changes are expressed through biochemical changes. Thiis is things like increases or decreases in seratonin, adrenaline, dopamine....

 

There is a process called neuroplasticity which can be used to 'undo' much of this by 'reconditioning' our brain. Others on this site are more familiar with this process and there are a lot of old entries on the issue as well. In any case, good luck and keep us posted.


#22 Backontrack

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:35 AM

I've been staring at the posts on this site for a while, I've been sitting here for at least 30 minutes wondering if I should even post or where to post it so I figured I'd just write and place it where I first started writing here...
I've gone from a relatively consistent good mood over the past couple of weeks, a few minor panic episodes and some disturbed sleep, but otherwise everything has been somewhat tolerable.
For no particular reason, with no real series of events I've crashed hard today to the point that I can't find a way to express it without beating myself up about it later for "over reacting".
The smallest of things are overwhelming right now and everything has a negative ending attached despite any evidence confirming this. A slight comment at work results in spending hours thinking about it, I have tomorrow off work for a long weekend and I'm sick at the idea because I should be working so I keep on top of everything.

It's the constant intrusive negative comments, I'm tense and biting my lip constantly, I want to cry but I can't get past the painfully uncomfortable threshold, so instead my stomach is burning, my body hurts and I'm terrified at the idea of disclosing to others, the thoughts of wanting to harm, to hurt and release this weird sense of awkward shame and dislike of myself right now. I was pulled up by my colleague (A psych) for being self depreciating today and I didn't even realise it.

I know a lot of this is still Cymbalta affecting my mood but it's made harder by the fact that the good days run for long enough for me to nearly believe it's all good and well, than BAM, right back in to the downward spiral yet still having to maintain a strong front... it's exhausting.


#23 thismoment

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 07:40 AM

Oh dear, I know you are still struggling. It always takes longer than we wish. It needs 6 months to settle down.

 

You have nothing to feel guilty about- you didn't plan this, you didn't wish this. The choices you made were arrived at via your history and your mind state in those moments. Things just happened because of what happened before. But you can change your future by consciously making small changes each moment. You really have more control than you think.

 

Take care.





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