33 replies to this topic

[gail]

Helllo to all.

 

Had my first therapy on friday. Went pretty well.

 

First thing she said was to get the physiological anxiety under control so we could work better on my psychological anxiety issues. There is a big difference between the two. I saw that clearly.

 

It has been out of wack in the last week, am at 20 weeks of discontinuation.

 

It was getting so much better, since week 13. Had 5 good days in a row at times. Not normal but encouraging.

 

Got a plan worked out to work on issues. She agreed that I will never be totally anxiety free, with my family history, well, things do get more complicated. It's in the cells, she says.

 

I will try to get in touch with my dr this week to get a clonidine prescription.

If I can get this under control, without having to upper valium, I will be a happy one.

 

Anxiety can poison a life, even when all is going smoothly, it freezes you up, make you afraid of simple things. And that, she says, is too demanding. Too much forcing here.

 

All in all, I am quite happy to see that she is a kind soul, understanding, not pushy, quite human.

With all she said, I could see that she had walked the walk and not only talked the talk.

 

We have 10 sessions, budget.... Can get a lot of things done here.

 

By the way, thanks FN and Liz for the suggestion you had made a few months ago about this.

 

And to you FH for the clonidine suggestion and information about this.

[FiveNotions]

Gail, this is excellent, positive news! I'm delighted for you!

I just checked my notes, and I've had the clonidine rx (0.1 mg, up to twice a day, "as needed") for about 3 weeks... during which time I've needed to use it just 5 times... for me, just 1/4 of a tablet works very very well to put a stop to the sense of anxiety adrenaline rush that I get ...and it hits the blood stream and I can feel it taking effect relatively rapidly... that's a tiny dose...but apparently, like the valium dose that works for me, it seems to work, so I'll stick with that... and increase it if/when I find I need to ...

Just knowing that the clonidine works for me is an anxiety reliever...

I think you'll find that the clonidine also works well for you ... and will help you move away from the valium a bit ...

As you say, the anxiety "freezes you up, make you afraid of simple things" ... And absolutely yes, that "is too demanding... Too much forcing..."

Sounds like your guardian angel found you a good therapist to work with ... and with the physiological anxiety managed/under control, you'll definitely be able to work through the underlying issues that cause/contribute to it...

Way to go, Gail!!!

[gail]

FN, so glad that the clonidine works for you and is highly recommended by another Wise One here

 

This is my last hope, would hate to have to take something stronger like seroquel or I dont know what!

 

Hydroxizine did not work on me. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

The fact that it worked for you is soothing.

Guardian angel, yes, that must be it. And of course suggestions made here by all of you.

 

Dr back from vacation on tuesday, thank God. And thank you!

[thismoment]

Gail

I'm aware of physiological and psychological 'tests' for anxiety, but are you speaking of 'causes'?

"First thing she said was to get the physiological anxiety under control so we could work better on my psychological anxiety issues. There is a big difference between the two."-- I don't understand this.

[FiveNotions]

TM, I can't speak for Gail ... but here's how it seems to parse out for me... does this respond to what you're saying?

my anxiety hits in the form of an adrenaline rush... the onset of tingling in my face and upper arms, very rapid pulse, and elevated blood pressure, a sensation in my stomach like when I'm on a rollercoaster, right at the crest of the highest point and then the drop over the top and the immediate descent ... also, a sense of nausea ... I'm caught between fight or flight... frozen...

And, when in the midst of that physical experience, I'm totally unable to talk about it... or what the "trigger" is/was ...

Once I can get that physical stuff under control, then I'm able to articulate the underlying source of it ... currently, it's the crapalta messes (years of unfiled tax returns to be done, damaged relationships and apologies/explanations to be made, job search, etc., as I mentioned above) ... in years past, it was major issues like childhood trauma due to parental alcoholism and physical violence between parents, self esteem issues, an abusive marriage, etc.)...

I couldn't dive into therapy for those issues until I was first assisted with getting the anxiety the trauma/issues produced under sufficient control ....

I totally understand that anxiety isn't just physical ... in other words, I don't believe we can medicate it away ... it requires talk therapy, CBT, mindfulness training ... but if I'm frozen in terror/fear, I can't talk, do CBT or mindfulness ...

[thismoment]

FN

I too have struggled with anxiety for many years, but thankfully it's currently in remission.

I just re-read Gail's original post, and I'm sure she meant the 'physiological aspect' of the anxiety. For some reason I thought she was saying there are two separate and distinct types of anxiety- one physiological and one psychological. I get it now- yes knock down the anxiety in advance of therapy.

[gail]

Gail

I'm aware of physiological and psychological 'tests' for anxiety, but are you speaking of 'causes'?

"First thing she said was to get the physiological anxiety under control so we could work better on my psychological anxiety issues. There is a big difference between the two."-- I don't understand this.

 

TM, for me psysiological anxiety is like PMS, not due to external events or traumas, like this discontuation shit that causes some anxiety. It originates from the cells, from inside the body, and you have no fucking way to deal with this. Sorry for the expression, but I am having a hell of a day.

 

Psychological anxiety is created by  external events, childhood wounds, fears of rejection and so on. We can work on that.

 

Yes, I see 2 types or causes of anxiety. Same effects, same ill-fealing, one you can control or work on, and one that you cannot   reason with it, meaning that there is nothing you can do about it but let it pass,like a panic attack out of the blue, you cannot know where it comes from, that for me is psysiological anxiety. That is where I am now. And it is full blown. Could be discontinuation. no way to know.

 

But if my boyfriend, which I dont have, says to me that it is over, that he no longer loves me, anxiety hits full time. Psychological cause.

 

Either way, it is unsettling, but at least when you know that this triggered that, it is more acceptable.

But I do not know the trigger, I see none,and that is very very unsettling, maddening.

 

Yes, I am having quite a bad day, I could just scream my head off. And I dont have anything to blame for this, dont have the slightest idea where it's coming from. I'm ranting here, I know, I could go on and on. I am angry, aggressive(not my usual self),

feel as though I am back to week 8, instead of 20.

 

And to say, that tomorrow could be different. I am used to this, meaning for a day or two, but not a full week of it.

Elves? I have not the capacity to use humor in those hard times. Wish I could!

 

And I thought that I felt awful before this lexapro and cymbalta crap, this was nothing compared to this.

Fine, I will stop here, I wonder if ranting helps...

[FiveNotions]

Gail, what have you taken today for the anxiety? Can you up the dose a bit?

Any chance there's another doc subbing in for your doc who's on vacay, and you could get him to write the rx for the clonidine?

Are you sure the hydroxyzine (sp?) didn't work? Would trying it again, today, be worth it?

Of course, there's always the ER if things get really unbearable ... but if you can make it through today, my hope would be that you can get your doc's on-call dude to help with the clonidine... ?

Keep us posted... and vent as much as you need to!

[gail]

Fn, I have upped the dosage by 5mg valium.

 

Hydroxizine, out of question, reacted badly on it.

 

The clicic closed for vacation, all 4 doctors. Open on tuesday. By thursday, should have the clonidine.

No use for ER, will upper the valium instead, anyway that would surely be the thing they would do.

 

Anxiety, followed by aggressivity, I can hardly stand myself. If I were a kid, I would feel like breaking and throwing dishes all around. Thank God, no one near me. Only Elves...sense of humor coming back, have to smile at this, my first one of the day.

 

Yes, I am smiling, Yeah! good omen.

 

I have seen days like these, in the firsrt months of withdrawal. I made it through then, should be ok again.

 

The weirdest thing is that I sleep ok. 

Thank you FN for your interest, means a lot.

[FiveNotions]

hmmmm... your sense of humor coming back is an excellent sign.... and upping the valium until you can get the clonidine makes sense...

The aggressive feelings are sort of worrying .... is this like the wild mood swings thing we had early on, as in it doesn't last long but while it's there it's really really almost overpowering ... or, as in it's just sort of hanging around, close under the surface?

I've mentioned elsewhere here that during the first several months I beat a couple of feather pillows into absolute and total submission ... have ya' tried that? (Seriously, it was/is a great aggression reliever ... second only to boxing gloves and a punching bag ;-)

Did you ever see that Clint Eastwood movie, Million Dollar Baby, with Hilary Swank playing the female boxer? Man, I loved her character .... 'cept I hated the sad ending ...

[gail]

FN, aggressive feeling is quite new to me, did not have that before.

 

Lasts a short time, and very seldom. Very impatient, no tolerance, phone off the hook thing. With a big sign in my head that says LEAVE ME ALONE OR I WILL BITE YOU. Maybe the word aggressive is not the right one here. No one suffers from it, besides myself.  I would not act on it. After a week of shit, I can understand than anyone could feel this way.

 

It does not worry me. Pillow punching, I like that. Better than breaking plates and having to clean the mess up.

 

What I do is move from one room to another many times, sit here, sit there, try to read, nothing doing. Mull over it, pray, cant meditate of course, but as I said, not worried over it.

[FiveNotions]

"Very impatient, no tolerance, phone off the hook thing. With a big sign in my head that says LEAVE ME ALONE OR I WILL BITE YOU" ....

hehehe ... oh yeah, I get that ! As in now understand what you mean, and as in ... yep, that's how I feel regularly ... lasts for maybe a few hours, maybe a few minutes, sometimes a whole day (or two) ... I think it happens when my circuits have overloaded, and I need downtime ... for example, today I unplugged the phone... yesterday it rang several times, and I just didn't answer, today I didn't even want to hear it ring... I'll get the messages off the voice mail tomorrow ... but yesterday and today I just needed to be LEFT THE HELL ALONE ...

For me, that's not pillow-pounding aggression/anger ... it's just "sick of this shit, need silence and solitude" ....

yep, I'm a cranky introvert ... so freakin' sue me ... :-%

[Wagtail]

Helllo to all.
 
Had my first therapy on friday. Went pretty well.
 
First thing she said was to get the physiological anxiety under control so we could work better on my psychological anxiety issues. There is a big difference between the two. I saw that clearly.
 
It has been out of wack in the last week, am at 20 weeks of discontinuation.
 
It was getting so much better, since week 13. Had 5 good days in a row at times. Not normal but encouraging.
 
Got a plan worked out to work on issues. She agreed that I will never be totally anxiety free, with my family history, well, things do get more complicated. It's in the cells, she says.
 
I will try to get in touch with my dr this week to get a clonidine prescription.
If I can get this under control, without having to upper valium, I will be a happy one.
 
Anxiety can poison a life, even when all is going smoothly, it freezes you up, make you afraid of simple things. And that, she says, is too demanding. Too much forcing here.
 
All in all, I am quite happy to see that she is a kind soul, understanding, not pushy, quite human.
With all she said, I could see that she had walked the walk and not only talked the talk.
 
We have 10 sessions, budget.... Can get a lot of things done here.
 
By the way, thanks FN and Liz for the suggestion you had made a few months ago about this.
 
And to you FH for the clonidine suggestion and information about this.

Gail , I'm taking the Clonidine also but I can only take it @ night because even @ a 1/4 of 0.1 mg it slows me down to much & makes me very tired . So I take a full 1 mg @ night & it settles me down , my doctor is happy with this .
I've also started taking 5mg of Valium 3x a day ( as of today ) until I give myself a chance to settle & get a routine happening .
I'm now just on 8 months off & the anxiety / fear has become almost chronic .
My therapist is working on teaching me strategies for trauma as opposed to cognitive therapy used for PTSD .. THAT DOESNT WORK FOR ME @ all .
Sometimes our body recognizes past trauma without us realizing or recognizing usual triggers... It sends us into a tailspin & the anxiety takes on a life of it's own .
This just happened to me last week & after she explained to me what had caused it , everything just made sense.
I feel better today than I did the past few days just by knowing what had happened & caused my downward spiral ... Hold on girl there's a reason for everything ..xx

[gail]

"Very impatient, no tolerance, phone off the hook thing. With a big sign in my head that says LEAVE ME ALONE OR I WILL BITE YOU" ....

hehehe ... oh yeah, I get that ! As in now understand what you mean, and as in ... yep, that's how I feel regularly ... lasts for maybe a few hours, maybe a few minutes, sometimes a whole day (or two) ... I think it happens when my circuits have overloaded, and I need downtime ... for example, today I unplugged the phone... yesterday it rang several times, and I just didn't answer, today I didn't even want to hear it ring... I'll get the messages off the voice mail tomorrow ... but yesterday and today I just needed to be LEFT THE HELL ALONE ...

For me, that's not pillow-pounding aggression/anger ... it's just "sick of this shit, need silence and solitude" ....

yep, I'm a cranky introvert ... so freakin' sue me ... :-%

 

Exactly FN, (sick of this shit), that is what I feel! Thank God, I am not alone.

[gail]

Wagtail, clonidine seems to be working for you, that is encouraging.

 

Cant wait to try this.

 

Been reading posts on another forum, seems as though people have a very rough time getting off whatever antidepressant.

And I thought it was mainly crapalta. No, no.

 

On the celexa and paxil forum, seems that at 8 or 9 months, right, months not weeks, people begin to feel better. Not normal, better.

Mentionning that between the 4rth and the 6th months are the worst.

 

Ah, the joy of whatever antidepressant discontinuation. Glad you are feeling better

[thismoment]

Gail

 

You're up early!

 

Good post- it's not just Cymbalta that's a horror-show. Also, I think assigning a timeline to discontinuation isn't helpful (I'll be done in 4 or 5 or 6 months). Just leave it open-ended: after you withdraw (when the drug is out of your system), then you are in discontinuation. That's it. After some months discontinuation becomes tolerable, and after many months it becomes barely noticeable.

 

But does it ever go away completely? I don't know; it would  be nice to get some feedback from folks who have been off SSRI/SNRIs for a number of years. 

[Amybc7]

I hate the anxiety!  What frustrates me is that absence of the anxiety for so long (really - before I went on Cymbalta) and now it's back.  Was feeling particularly awful last night and was watching TV - boom! - complete anxiety.  I just started crying and shaking.  Heart racing.  No warning and no real explanation - just there.  

 

So glad to hear about your experiences working through it, on it, addressing it, etc.  

[FiveNotions]

Amy, do you have something on hand to take for the anxiety? Benzo, clonidine, hydroxyzine (sp?) etc?

If not, please consider asking your doc for something ... it makes this whole process a lot more doable/bearable ....

[Amybc7]

Amy, do you have something on hand to take for the anxiety? Benzo, clonidine, hydroxyzine (sp?) etc?

If not, please consider asking your doc for something ... it makes this whole process a lot more doable/bearable ....

 

I wish I did!  Many moons ago I took Klonopin and then later Ativan.  My doctor at that time felt I was on them for "too long" and discontinued them.  I actually took them only as needed, but there is a huge market for abuse of them in my community.  My newish doctor (I've been with her just over a year) is very hesitant to prescribe them.  

[FiveNotions]

Amy, I can understand your concerns about benzos... and those of your doctor... I got addicted to Xanax years ago, and it was a bitch to get myself off of it... however, that happened because I was totally uninformed about the risks, the doc I had at the time didn't tell me, and in fact, he kept upping my allowed dose until it was "take as needed" ... yikes!

I went through the worst of withdrawal from Cymbalta without anything ... and it would have helped to have something ... I used Nyquil and robitussin (sp?) cough syrup, which helped me quite a bit ... they both have DMX ... can't spell the whole word... but in addition to helping coughs, it boosts serotonin...

however, I'm now on valium, 2 mg a day, a very low dose, and clonidine 0.1 mg, twice a day as needed ... the clonidine, which I take only 1/4 a tablet rather than the full dose (guess I'm really sensitive/responsive to meds), helps a lot and isn't a benzo ... it's actually a bp med, that's used "off label" for anxiety ...

Maybe you could ask your doc about the clonidine, or hydroxyzine... FH has used/uses hydroxyzine with good results... but Gail found that it doesn't work for her ... it's different for each of us, but do consider asking for something... it'll ease your mind just to know you've got something "on hand" even if you don't actually use it :-)

[gail]

Gail

 

You're up early!

 

Good post- it's not just Cymbalta that's a horror-show. Also, I think assigning a timeline to discontinuation isn't helpful (I'll be done in 4 or 5 or 6 months). Just leave it open-ended: after you withdraw (when the drug is out of your system), then you are in discontinuation. That's it. After some months discontinuation becomes tolerable, and after many months it becomes barely noticeable.

 

But does it ever go away completely? I don't know; it would  be nice to get some feedback from folks who have been off SSRI/SNRIs for a number of years. 

TM, the point here, nobody thinks it will last more than a few months.

 

As I understood when beginning in this forum, was that after 4 or 5 months, if you still have difficulties, consider another medication. I read that a few times. And I believed strongly that by then, I would be home-free.

 

After reading on Paxil progress, this info about the 4 or 5 month is not accurate. More like 8 or 9 or 10months and more.

 

In a way, believing in the 4 to 5 months was a relief. If I had seen 10 months, I think I would have lost it.

 

And now, here I am, at week 20, feeling like at week 8, like shit. After 4 or five better weeks.

 

And people do have to understand that it can take quite a while.

 

And I now believe that what I am going through is discontinuation. Wax and wane. And I thought in the most part that this was behind me. Ah Ah, big mistake!

 

Really disappointed in this, and in a way relieved knowing that I am not going crazy, just continuing discontinuation!

 

Ps Up early, work early. With the mind all over the place, I just dont know how I do it. Littles elves whispering, will you make it

through? And I answer, been there before, I made it through once, will make it again. Good thing I keep a diary, can go back and read things like I AM SO RELIEVED TODAY. FEELING GOOD. GETTING SO MUCH BETTER and so on. Wish that I could blame saturday's full moon.

[thismoment]

Gail

 

I agree with you.

 

"In a way, believing in the 4 to 5 months was a relief. If I had seen 10 months, I think I would have lost it."

 

I think the forum has to be viewed as a living document in that the body of knowledge is continually growing. Recently I've removed hard numbers (5 months, 6 months etc) from my conversation about discontinuation except to indicate trends and average timelines for improvement. In general, this is discontinuation ("continuing discontinuation" as you said), and I'm sure it diminishes to the point where we just forget about it.

 

I sense that there is not, however, a crisp and definite finish line.

[fishinghat]

Well said both of you. Paxil is an evil beast as well to get off of. This whole world of ssri and snri  reminds me of that the old timers use to say about drs.

 

"They cured the disease but the patient died."

 

Sometimes the cure is worse than the condition.

[Lundeliz]

Gail, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, only I've been off over 7 months.

For the past month, I've been feeling a little better and thought the worst was

behind me. Then about 3 days ago I started having severe headaches with nausea.

Then the akathisia that I hoped was gone forever, has been back. Yesterday I had

severe anxiety and was pacing the floor for hours. I can feel it building up again

today, and already have the pressure headache and nausea. I'm sorry you have hit

a wave also, but it does give me some relief to know that it's probably just the

normal way that discontinuation progresses for some of us. It's very frustrating

to feel like I'm back at day one with the symptoms. From what I have been reading,

this wave will pass, so hang in there.

[Wagtail]

Well said both of you. Paxil is an evil beast as well to get off of. This whole world of ssri and snri  reminds me of that the old timers use to say about drs.
 
"They cured the disease but the patient died."
 
Sometimes the cure is worse than the condition.

Out of likes.... F/H .. I like this post ..:-)

[Wagtail]

Lundeliz , I'm almost a mirror image of you .... Mine keeps coming back too.
The anxiety & fear keep returning & as much as I'm scared to take benzos on a regular basis , I'm now taking 5 mgs of Valium 3 x a day & 0.5 mg Clonidine @ night .
Hopefully this will get me some relief on a regular basis & allow me to move forward & start to do things outside the home.
Then if I can get involved in things & get myself some interests to keep me busy & my mind off my dicontinuation, I might find that I can then start to cut my dose down slowly .

At the moment the anxiety is keeping me almost a prisoner @ home which is detrimental to me recovering ... The unusual thing is that in the beginning when I was withdrawing & most of my symptoms were physical , I could still get out & go to the gym & the shopping centre. I could handle the physical but the emotional feelings are debilitating & stopping me from socializing .
Oh well I will keep on trying things & hopefully something will eventually work for me ...
Hang in there my friend , we are suffering together ..:-)

[gail]

Gail, I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, only I've been off over 7 months.

For the past month, I've been feeling a little better and thought the worst was

behind me. Then about 3 days ago I started having severe headaches with nausea.

Then the akathisia that I hoped was gone forever, has been back. Yesterday I had

severe anxiety and was pacing the floor for hours. I can feel it building up again

today, and already have the pressure headache and nausea. I'm sorry you have hit

a wave also, but it does give me some relief to know that it's probably just the

normal way that discontinuation progresses for some of us. It's very frustrating

to feel like I'm back at day one with the symptoms. From what I have been reading,

this wave will pass, so hang in there.

Hello Lundeliz, wow, same boat here. Imagine nausea coming back, had that this morning , just like at the beginning.

 

Headaches, my goodness, yes. Not a headache person here.

 

I could have written your post, feeling this anxiety, pacing, back to square one thing.

 

I know this wave will pass, and while on it, minutes seems like hours.

 

Thanks for your post, Lundeliz, knowing that I am not alone on that , God, I have developped foul language recently, I will refrain myself here, and say ,not alone on that f***boat.

[gail]

Wagtail, Lundeliz and Gail, sailing on the sea together! What a team! And surely others...

[Lundeliz]

Good luck, Wagtail. I agree the mental symptoms are debilitating. I really hope

your plan works out. I also feel like a prisoner in my home (in my bedroom!)

This is really really tough, but, yes, we have to hang in there. It will get better!

I just know we will get our lives back!

[Lundeliz]

Ha, the three musketeers.  I'm sorry anyone else has to endure this, but gosh it's good to

 

not be so alone in it.  We will make it.  I wish there was a way to rush it, but apparently

 

there's not.   Hoping for a clear window for all of us soon!