Jump to content



Photo

"chemical Imbalance" - Marketing Myth


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:06 AM

THIS SHIT IS POISONOUS!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yesterday one of the talking-head psychiatrists (a Big Pharma sales rep) on CNN was blabbering on about how Robin Williams suffered from a "chemical imbalance" in his brain.

 

When will this bullshit end?

 

The Low-Serotonin Theory has been studied to death and it has yielded no proof whatsoever that low serotonin causes depression. In fact one Japanese study suggested that an 'excess' of free serotonin in the synaptic cleft might be the cause of depression. There's just as much 'evidence' for either. The percentage of low serotonin levels in depressed subjects is about the same percentage of low serotonin levels in non-depressed subjects. And a Swedish study revealed that 24% of depressed patients had high levels of serotonin.

 

"I spent the first several years of my career doing full-time research on brain serotonin metabolism, but I never saw any convincing evidence that any psychiatric disorder, including depression, results from a deficiency of brain serotonin." 

- Stanford Psychiatrist Dr. David Burns

 

"There is no scientific evidence whatsoever that clinical depression is due to any kind of biological deficit state."

- Dr. Colin Ross, Associate Professor of Psychiatry Southwest Medical Centre, Dallas

 

"The serotonin theory of depression is comparable to the masturbatory theory of insanity."

-Dr. David Healy, Psychiatrist

 

Notes and quotes from Anatomy of An Epidemic, by Robert Whitaker; esp. pp 68-75.


#2 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

Very very thought-provoking, TM ... does this mean that all our (my) talk about the benefits of serotonin supps (tryptophan and 5-htp) and dopamine supps (tyrosine) are BS?

 

Does this mean that what I've believed about why Wellbutrin works for my depression, but not SSRIs is due to me having a dopamine deficient type of depression is BS?

 

Heck, does this mean that I didn't cause my insanity by youthful masturbation? :P


#3 gail

gail

    God-like

  • Site Supporter
  • 5,620 posts
  • LocationSherbrooke, PQ
  • why_joining:
    5 months on cymbalta, scary side effects, to get help and to return the favor if I can.

Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:46 AM

Tm, I am so impressed by this, I have no words.

You just threw me off with this. Not in a bad way.

But I know you know what you are talking about. I am flabbergasted, if that is a word.

#4 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:09 AM

Okay, this has kicked me into research high gear .... I'm wondering if there's a "middle ground" on the chemical imbalance approach to depression and anxiety ... in other words:
 
1) is there a valid scientific basis for the connection between neurotransmitters in our brains and depression, making the use of meds a viable treatment option ... and
 
2) has this been "co-opted" and abused by big pharma to market their drugs to excess?
 
And, if these drugs and supplements are worthless, and if we're someone for whom the alternative treatments like mindfulness, TCM etc aren't fully effective, what's left for us ... just to live with anxiety and depression that render us unable to function?

#5 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:25 AM

FN

 

There is no doubt that if you boost or restrict any of these neurotransmitters there will be a result. A shot of dopamine will me feel better on the short term, but that doesn't mean I'm dopamine-deficient.

 

I think it's up to each one of us to research the issue. And yes, I felt cheerier initially with the serotonin boost (anybody would), but as you know, it all backfires after a while and we have to escape it. The discussion of serotonin still stands as Boost, Letdown, and Then What? 

 

Look where we are; medication certainly helps, but not this stuff. I would rather have my old depression back than to be where this crap has left me.


#6 brzghoff

brzghoff

    Like a Family Member

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 859 posts
  • Locationjust south of sanity

Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:39 AM

 

while i believe that big pharma has deceptively campaigned that all depression/mental illness is caused by a chemical imbalance, i do believe there is merit in using meds, especially when it comes to bipolar 1, schizophrenia and schizo-affective disorder. it runs in families and has been tracked in biological relatives of children who were raised by adoptive parents. i have seen the ugly reality of bipolar 1 and schizophrenia in friends before and after treatment. 

 

what i do not believe is that most cases of depression are due to a chemical imbalance. that is why placebo performed as well, if not better for most people in depression studies. most people would benefit best from cognitive behavioral therapy. most 'mental illness" is caused by our own self talk insisting that things, people and situations "should be" or "should behave" a certain way. the reality is as long as we insist on life going the way we think it "should" we will continue to "disturb" ourselves. the result is anger, frustration, rage and worse. we also do this when we tell ourselves that we "can't stand" a situation. yes we can.

 

we only have power over things that we can control - our behavior and our self talk. for me, the best tangible example of this in action was when my therapist put his chair on his desk and then asked me "where should this chair be" i said on the floor. he said "nope, since it is on the desk - that is where it should beyou can either accept the fact that the chair is there - knowing that it would be better off if it were not there (or more easily used if it was on the floor) but it is not in your best interest to insist that it should be there - since it is not. or you can place the chair on the floor yourself. if you don't have permission to move the chair - then accept where it is knowing and accepting you don't have control over the situation. we must change our thinking. it is our insistence that other people or certain situations must change. the truth is they don't have to do anything. no amount of a drug will change that. drugs also won't make us change our way of thinking. they may help in the short term to get to a point where we can work on our issues, but they are not a long term cure.

 

 

where i feel meds do help and are essential, if not for life at least in the short term, is when a person is at imminent risk of committing bodily harm to themselves or someone else. 


#7 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:40 AM

"Look where we are; medication certainly helps, but not this stuff. I would rather have my old depression back than to be where this crap has left me." / TM

For me, yes, the medication certainly helped .... but just the Wellbutrin that I'd been taking for years was completely successful, and sufficient, to deal with my depression.

Then I encountered the big pharma hell of an adverse reaction to its generic ... twice ... that's when poisonous Cymbalta entered my life ... to patch me up from the adverse reactions ... up until that point, I was cruising along, no depression, no anxiety and having a full and happy life ... and then, Cymbalta took control of my life ... and then, I encountered another adverse reaction hell to its generic...

What I would rather have back is my "old life with Wellbutrin" .. before the generics, before Cymbalta ... but I would not want my original depression back ... I was completely unable to function ...

not sure this makes sense ... :wacko:

 


#8 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:43 AM

Brzghoff .. I love your therapist's chair example ... when I read that, and his question to you, my immediate response was "how 'bout the ceiling" ... (he'd probably have fired me as his client)  :P


#9 air3333

air3333

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 71 posts

Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:54 AM

FN

 

There is no doubt that if you boost or restrict any of these neurotransmitters there will be a result. A shot of dopamine will me feel better on the short term, but that doesn't mean I'm dopamine-deficient.

 

I think it's up to each one of us to research the issue. And yes, I felt cheerier initially with the serotonin boost (anybody would), but as you know, it all backfires after a while and we have to escape it. The discussion of serotonin still stands as Boost, Letdown, and Then What? 

 

Look where we are; medication certainly helps, but not this stuff. I would rather have my old depression back than to be where this crap has left me.

 

Big Pharma Psychiatrists appear to be experts by the media (especially CNN). Without independent verification, Psychiatrists are lauded as the sole expert on your brain and how your brain works in everyday life. The media believes depression is a brain disease and nothing else, and that's that, if you have it, you have it for life - they have seen it. You must be put on a drug to save your life (we all know how that works out).

 

The spin will continue on TV and in schools. They are regurgitating the hypothesis that there is a chemical imbalance in the brain and must be fixed by medication and there are no other means to defeating depression. As they complain about depression as a disease, I assume no one will say that the drug he was taking could have caused a suicide.

 

In reality, nobody knows why people do this stuff, and I can't trust doctors to tell me that it is my brain and I was born this way for the rest of my life. I don't believe the truth will come out of this case or any future ones. Pharmaceuticals have the money and shareholders to eliminate any possible concerns related to their business. 

 

Antidepressants could help in the very short term. They also can kill you. They also change your personality and thinking abilities. Your judgement is impaired while on the drugs and may cause someone to do something dangerous. I have personal experience with my judgement being unstable. 

 

In any event I am not going to blame the world on antidepressants. I am one person and cannot change the psyche and ideas of one nation. I hope Obama and the doctors put more people on the drugs so their family and friends will understand the serious consequences of their actions. It really is the only way for outsiders to understand that the drugs can kill. This idea may be sick, but I believe it is the only way for people to understand. Maybe then the drugs will be banned.  

 

I used to believe I have a lifelong genetic disorder as stated by physicians. I realized now that is just a hypothesis set forth by a certain group of people. Think of how that feels to be forced to take drugs for the rest of your life. That idea in effect had increased my suicidal thoughts because I was relegated to the drugs for the rest of my life. Physicians are also the last ones to admit fault for fear of lawsuits. Only people can take control of their own lives. Zoned out and in a zombie like state, I decided to stop the drugs after realizing what was happening to me. It took me years to realize this and I believe that there are many more out there. It is a sad situation worse than the state of mind depression. 


#10 fishinghat

fishinghat

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,807 posts
  • LocationMissouri

Posted 13 August 2014 - 12:00 PM

TM

 

I am in total agreement with those comments. When I originally had my nervous breakdown I had considerable blood work done. The blood work and several drs agreed it was due to a chronic adrenergic state. So what did they do? They put me on medicine to control my serotonin!! Hello!!  Unluckily at that time I was not in shape to deal with things. Once I got my head straightened out some I slowly started getting off the serotonin drugs and on drugs that control adrenaline. But of course my serotonin levels are royally screwed now but I am off all them but the Zoloft. Maybe some day.


#11 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 13 August 2014 - 12:06 PM

Yes, and I realize now that I should have been on my first antidepressant, the Wellbutrin, just long enuf to get the therapy I needed ... maybe 3-6 months or so of therapy, then wean off the med ... didn't happen ...the therapist said I was "fixed" and out the door I went ... and thus, stayed on it for years, until the run-in with its generic ...

 

None of what's happened to me since then was necessary ... all drug-induced ... makes me furious, but gotta' deal with what I've got ...


#12 fishinghat

fishinghat

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,807 posts
  • LocationMissouri

Posted 13 August 2014 - 12:11 PM

How true FN. Unluckily most of these meds not only alter your attitude but also cloud your thinking. This makes it very difficult to deal with the med issues clearly.


#13 brzghoff

brzghoff

    Like a Family Member

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 859 posts
  • Locationjust south of sanity

Posted 13 August 2014 - 02:34 PM

Brzghoff .. I love your therapist's chair example ... when I read that, and his question to you, my immediate response was "how 'bout the ceiling" ... (he'd probably have fired me as his client)  :P

quite the contrary. he would have busted out laughing and congratulated you on having a sense of humor. he is frank, no nonsense and doesn't put up with crap. he calls me out all the time when he senses i'm stirring up a pity party. however, he is endearing, truly cares and has a great sense of humor. oh, and he cusses like a sailor.  


#14 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 13 August 2014 - 03:18 PM

Hi FN

 

Interesting topic.

 

Wellbutrin is a small-bore weapon compared to duloxetine, and acts lightly on norepinephrine and dopamine, and is quite different from SS/SNRIs. The thing that really bothers me is the fact that I was given a small boost up front, but that was followed by a letdown which included physical damage, and a protracted withdrawal and discontinuation struggle that was worse than my condition on entry. And now I have annoying residual medical issues (though not serious) that came out of that process. 

 

Not only was the science not there to prove Low-Serotonin-Theory, but it was not thought through; you and I are the "through" part-- we physically embody the long-term consequences.

 

I introduced the topic because the no-proof-for-serotonin-deficiency is high on the list of SSRI critics; Robert Whitaker's book, Anatomy of an Epidemic is representative of this, and I recommend it.

 

And we still need to address the serotonin issue (provide the raw material- tryptophan) because there may be significant damage to serotonin re-uptake mechanisms, because nearly 100% of serotonin is recycled, and it's half-life is relatively short. The half-life of serotonin in blood platelets is about 6 days (the same as the platelet), but in the brain it's only a few minutes. One may not have a serotonin deficiency starting these SS/SNRI drugs, but it's very possible they will have a deficiency after they wean off.

 

A blood test for serotonin levels would probably be a good idea.


#15 air3333

air3333

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 71 posts

Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:02 AM

General knowledge about street drugs are the same - users get a temporary high and then a letdown and need more for another high. I definitely think there are similar results from recovering drug addicts compared to Cymbalta and other antidepressants.

 

If Cymbalta affects the same chemicals as heroin and cocaine then why are the "medicines" legal? What's wrong with these people? 


#16 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 14 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

air3333

 

Why are any drugs illegal?


#17 fishinghat

fishinghat

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,807 posts
  • LocationMissouri

Posted 14 August 2014 - 03:26 PM

General knowledge about street drugs are the same - users get a temporary high and then a letdown and need more for another high. I definitely think there are similar results from recovering drug addicts compared to Cymbalta and other antidepressants.

 

If Cymbalta affects the same chemicals as heroin and cocaine then why are the "medicines" legal? What's wrong with these people? 

Well, heroin, an opium derivative, is available by prescription for certain conditions as is cocaine (primarily used as an anesthetic in certain surgeries).


#18 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 14 August 2014 - 04:12 PM

TM, I agree ... I'm going to ask my gp at the clinic about a serotonin test ... I see him at the end of the month, the shrink isn't scheduled until the end of September ... I bet he says no, or he's never heard of it ... likewise the shrink ... but it's worth a try ... I've very curious about this ...

 

The more I read, research-wise and here, the more I recognize just how powerful serotonin is in terms of it's neurotransmitter role in the brain and CNS, and how many (all?) of our bodily functions it impacts ... in addition to the massive mental/mind impacts ...

 

The wellbutrin, you're right, is just "small bore" (love that description ... as opposed to Cymbalta ... the Big Bertha of anti-d's....

 

And TM, are you saying that you've taken the Wellbutrin? Is that the "small boost" thing?


#19 brzghoff

brzghoff

    Like a Family Member

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 859 posts
  • Locationjust south of sanity

Posted 14 August 2014 - 05:21 PM

“Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you.”
- C.G. Jung


#20 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:55 PM

Ritalin is the closest synthetic drug to cocaine; the brain can't tell the difference between them. Seems like a no-brainer to avoid the Morality Squad and incarceration for those folks chasing that nasal rainbow.

 

FN- I did try Wellbutrin early on, but it made me sick so I had to stop it quite soon. Therefore I can't comment.  BTW I will have my serotonin levels done on my next medical too. Also I agree about the 5-HTP caution you posted. I think I mentioned that I went looking for tryptophan but there was only 1 mg prescription-only at this drug store-- but they had tons of 5-HTP on the shelf. I mentioned this to the pharmacist-- the bypassing of the enzyme between the tryptophan and 5-HTP-- and she said she had thought the same thing.

 

I think avoid the 5-HTP and just take tryptophan if it's necessary; let your body make the 5-HTP and the down-the-line neurotransmitters.


#21 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:13 PM

hmmm....TM, it's interesting that you didn't find the tryptophan readily available, but did find the 5-HTP .... that's exactly what I noticed when I ended up buying the 5-HTP ... I'll check the online vitamin/supps sources for tryptophan ...

 

As for the Ritalin, I've seen it discussed a lot on the "recreational" drug use discussion forums that abound on the internet ... people sharing what symptoms/stories to tell the doc to make him give you the rx .... yep, it's legal cocaine ... love the "nasal rainbow" image!

 

And I'm also fascinated that the wellbutrin made you sick ... the excellent shrink I had back then, who prescribed it for me, did so after I had zero result from paxil and celexa ... I remember she told me something to the effect of "if you don't need dopamine, you'll know right away because this will make you feel awful" .... she started me at the low dose, 75 mg of immediate release ... I figured I try a couple of doses and see what happened .... it did quite the opposite of make me sick ...the beneficial effect hit me about the third day ... I was up and functioning and feeling better than I had in a couple of years ... she was amazed cuz it's supposed to take a while to ramp up in your system ...

 

Man, there is definitely no "one size fits all" when it comes to these chemicals ... I'm looking forward to reaching a point of stability ... as in, have a job and have lost the anxiety ... when I can start getting off the Wellbutrin ... or at least try ... even a dose reduction would make me happy ....


#22 brzghoff

brzghoff

    Like a Family Member

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 859 posts
  • Locationjust south of sanity

Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:34 AM

 

five notions, i am interested in the idea of blood serotonin levels. it was my understanding that serotonin blood levels don't correlate to brain serotonin levels and that the blood levels are used to diagnose carcinoid syndrome . is the test also used to diagnose serotonin syndrome? makes me curious as to if high blood serotonin levels can also make one at higher risk for tumors?

 

http://www.nlm.nih.g...icle/003562.htm

 

this moment, as for wellbutrin making you sick, i know that before the "XR" version it was hard to keep a constant level in the blood and as a result didn't work well for many people. were you on the old school or the "XR" ? i used to be on the XR version and it made me feel hyped up, nervous, tense and i had a very hard time with losing my train of thought and finding the right words in conversation. i had to get off it. since it acts on dopamine it is a very good drug for those who want to quit smoking, drinking, drugging etc. i lost my interest in drinking coffee while on it - and i wasn't even trying to quit caffeine! 


#23 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:49 AM

Brzghoff, that was also my understanding ... FH posted research elsewhere here stating that serotonin supplements don't cross the BB barrier ... someone else posted research, my FH as well, stating the serotonin levels in the blood don't correspond to those in the brain, thus blood tests for serotonin levels as related to depression aren't effective ...

 

I've got this on my "research to do" list, and hope to be able to spend some time working on it this weekend. (Today is another "job app" day... much less interesting/fun than researching stuff for us!)

 

And thanks for adding that point about the Wellbutrin ... when I was on the immediate release, I remember the "up and down" effect ... when the XL came out it was very effective at keeping things level ... I was on the 150 XL for quite a long time ... I don't recall when I was upped to the 300 xl ... it could have been after my first run-in with the Teva generic, bupropion ...


#24 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:53 AM

brzghoff

 

Sorry, I can't remember which version of Wellbutrin it was. I was in that deer-in-the-headlights state of WTF detachment where I would have eaten monkey chow it they had prescribed it.


#25 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:03 AM

FN and brzghoff

 

Here's a Q&A on 5-HTP and serotonin.

 

http://www.life-enha...cts-and-fiction


#26 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:15 AM

TM, excellent ... cogent and succinct ... best explanation I've read, thank you!


#27 fishinghat

fishinghat

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,807 posts
  • LocationMissouri

Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:53 AM

Brzghoff, that was also my understanding ... FH posted research elsewhere here stating that serotonin supplements don't cross the BB barrier ... someone else posted research, my FH as well, stating the serotonin levels in the blood don't correspond to those in the brain, thus blood tests for serotonin levels as related to depression aren't effective ...

 

I've got this on my "research to do" list, and hope to be able to spend some time working on it this weekend. (Today is another "job app" day... much less interesting/fun than researching stuff for us!)

 

And thanks for adding that point about the Wellbutrin ... when I was on the immediate release, I remember the "up and down" effect ... when the XL came out it was very effective at keeping things level ... I was on the 150 XL for quite a long time ... I don't recall when I was upped to the 300 xl ... it could have been after my first run-in with the Teva generic, bupropion ...

See this link to blood brain barrier that I posted earlier.

 

https://www.cymbalta...rrier/?hl=blood

 

Remember to look at both serotonin and tryptophan crossing the BBB.


#28 thismoment

thismoment

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,514 posts

Posted 15 August 2014 - 10:57 AM

Yes, tryptophan gets bypassed in the cursory inspection, but it's the foundation.


#29 FiveNotions

FiveNotions

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,686 posts
  • LocationUS, East Coast
  • why_joining:
    I want my life back!

Posted 15 August 2014 - 11:16 AM

TM and FH, why do you think the 5-HTP seems to be more heavily "promoted" as a supplement, rather than the tryptophan, which is safer/milder yet still effective?

FH, thanks, yet again, for correcting me on the BBB thing ... I simply cannot keep it straight in my addled brain ...

Also, TM has posted some good, related info over on the "serotonin-boost" thread he started ....

Here's an excerpt from the wiki article on serotonin ... (not that wiki is 100% authoritative...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin

"Serotonin taken orally does not pass into the serotonergic pathways of the central nervous system, because it does not cross the blood–brain barrier[citation needed]. However, tryptophan and its metabolite 5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP), from which serotonin is synthesized, can and do cross the blood–brain barrier. These agents are available as dietary supplements, and may be effective serotonergic agents."

#30 fishinghat

fishinghat

    God-like

  • Active Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,807 posts
  • LocationMissouri

Posted 15 August 2014 - 11:59 AM

There has got to be a reason. To go along with your comment there is a lot more research on the 5-HTP than tryp. If I had to guess I would say it is probably cheaper to produce 5-HTP than Tryp. Just a guess but it seams like everything else is money related.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users