894 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

Be careful IUN if you goggle "natural beta-blockers" because most of what you will come up with is natural stuff to lower blood pressure nit to actually block adrenaline.

I found 2 and have one more to check out. I did not check the safety factor for these supplements but with your knowledge you won't have any problem doing that.


Indian Coleus

Indian coleus, or Coleus forskohlii, is a perennial herb native to India. Ayurvedic practitioners use it to treat heart diseases and skin disorders. In his 2003 book, “Medical Herbalism: The Science and Practice of Herbal Medicine,” clinical herbalist David Hoffmann says that several heart and skin diseases involve low levels of cyclic adenosine monophosphate, or cAMP, a chemical messenger molecule that regulates epinephrine. The active ingredient in Indian coleus is forskolin, a chemical that increases cAMP levels and relaxes smooth muscles, making it useful for treating high blood pressure, asthma, congestive heart failure, glaucoma and angina. Like beta blockers, forskolin has a positive effect on your heart and reduces intraocular pressure that causes glaucoma. Do not use this herb if you have diabetes. Do not combine it with other heart medicine.

Hawthorn

Indian Snakeroot

Indian snakeroot, or Rauvolfia serpentina, is a woody shrub native to South Asia. Herbalists use the roots to treat a range of disorders, including hypertension, anxiety, constipation, insomnia and rheumatism. Active ingredients include more than 60 potent alkaloids, such as reserpine, rescinnamine, serpentine, ajmalicine and ajmaline. Some of these alkaloids act similar to beta blockers. In their 2009 book, “Medicinal Plants of the World,” botanist Ben-Erik van Wyk and biologist Michael Wink say that Indian snakeroot is anti-hypertensive because reserpine inhibits the re-uptake of norepinephrine, causing its depletion by enzymes. Another alkaloid, ajmaline, has anti-arrhythmic action and inhibits ventricular arrhythmias. Indian snakeroot has tranquilizing effects because, like beta-blockers, it reduces the effects of the stress hormone norepinephrine. Do not combine this herb with other tranquilizers or antidepressants.
 

[fishinghat]

The other one I was thinking of was Jujube but it is not a beta blocker.

[invalidusername]

This is fantastic - thank you so much.

 

I'm just finishing up some study and I will have a look into these and report back what I find later regarding safety and so forth. More than happy to give natural stuff a go as the likelihood of "withdrawal" is not there, although side effects could be.

 

I'll see what I can find and will let you have a read tomorrow to see what you think before I commit.

 

Bless you Hat.

[fishinghat]

I did a quick look at Coleus forskohlii and found no data on it effecting adrenaline. I did find where it increases cAMP, an energy transfer molecule. It is said to be a stimulant and used to fight fatigue. Doesn't sound good for your use.

[fishinghat]

Very interesting...


Reserpine is the active ingredient in Rauvolfia serpentina

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/13875798
Depletion and replacement of the adrenaline and noradrenaline contents of the rat adrenal gland, following treatment with reserpine.
Abstract
The effect of reserpine on the adrenaline and noradrenaline contents of rat adrenal glands has been studied. Given subcutaneously to male albino Wistar rats in 3 daily doses of 1 mg/kg, it caused, 24 hr after the final dose, a similar percentage loss of adrenaline and noradrenaline of approximately 50%. Subsequently the adrenaline content slowly increased, until at 14 days from the begining of the experiment there was no significant difference between the reserpine-treated and the control glands. In contrast, the recovery of the noradrenaline content was rapid, exceeding the control value at 7 days by approximately 250%. This increased content of noradrenaline declined to the normal level by 21 days. The total amine content returned to normal by 7 days and remained at this level subsequently. The effect of re-depleting the glands of their amine content was investigated. It was found that re-depletion at 7 days caused a preferential release of noradrenaline, followed at 14 days by a peak of noradrenaline at least as high as that obtained following the initial depletion only. Re-depletion at 21 days caused an effect similar to that obtained initially. Denervation of the left adrenal gland did not alter the degree of depletion caused by reserpine, nor did it alter the subsequent replacement of the amines as compared with that in the innervated right gland.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/4104653
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC1510601/
Many more articles on how this active ingredient depletes the adrenaline levels in the adrenal gland.
For Healthcare Professionals
Applies to reserpine: oral tablet
General
In one study of 231 hospitalized patients, 26 (11.3%) reported adverse side effects. Of these 26 patients, three (1.2%) patients developed side effects that were considered life-threatening. Adverse reactions were observed within the first two days of therapy in 62% of patients who experienced side effects.
Respiratory
The most common side effect is nasal congestion, reported in 8% of patients. A rare respiratory system side effect is bronchospasm.
Rare reports of reserpine-induced bronchospasm are believed to be due to inactivation of beta-adrenergic receptors, which can result in a marked potentiation of the bronchoconstrictive effect of histamine.
Nervous system
Increased parkinsonian movements upon reserpine withdrawal (as with neuroleptics) may be due to supersensitivity to dopamine as a result of increased dopamine receptors that developed during reserpine therapy.
Common nervous system side effects include sedation, lethargy (different from the psychiatric syndrome of depression), drowsiness, weakness, vertigo, insomnia, or headache in approximately 1% to 5% of patients. While reserpine is used to treat tardive dyskinesia, extrapyramidal movements may worsen upon withdrawal of therapy. A case of CNS hypertension, believed to be due to cerebral edema, has been associated with the use of reserpine.
Psychiatric
Psychiatric problems related to reserpine therapy can be serious. Depression occurs in 2% to 28% of patients, is more likely when daily doses exceed 0.5 mg, and can present at any time during therapy. Suicidal ideation has been reported. Reserpine-induced depression is quickly reversible if therapy is withdrawn as soon as the syndrome is recognized, but can persist for several months after drug discontinuation if the syndrome fully develops. Reserpine withdrawal psychosis has been reported.
The depressive syndrome usually consists of melancholy, loss of self confidence, early morning awakening, loss of libido, and reduced appetite.
A case of reserpine withdrawal psychosis has been reported. This uncommon condition may be due to dopamine receptor supersensitivity, which develops during reserpine therapy.

https://www.amazon.c...customerReviews
This product has good reviews and is an extract not pure reserpine.

https://www.amazon.c...lfia serpentina

[invalidusername]

Yes, so looking into Coleus forskohlii, it is labelled as more of a nootropic for increasing memory and cognitive ability - its speaks of aiding synaptic plasticity, which may have its own place in aiding the regeneration of serotonin, but as you say, not much for the purposes I am looking for.

 

Had a look at Jujube all the same out of curiosity. Seems to be associated with neuro-digenerative diseases more than anything else - referred to as neuroprotection, but the byproduct of repairing such elements within the brain states that it is benefitial for insomnia and depression. Also speaks of the peel being a good antioxidant.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5478819/

 

The use of rauwolfia serpentina is linked everywhere to hypertension - obviously the first concern is the lowering of the blood pressure as mine doesn't appear to be in danger! Having said that, it might be worth monitoring it at this point and during these symptoms as it could well have gone north, and in which case, this would be of benefit. 

 

So mechanisms speak of inhibiting the uptake of both norepinephrine and dopamine, thus leading to the overall slowing down of the central nervous system, so has some sedative reaction - not sure how this is affected in the drops you have linked to.

 

https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB09363

 

Looked on on Amazon UK - nothing... looked elsewhere on common sites - nothing! Further investigation leads me to;

 

https://www.gov.uk/g...bal-ingredients

 

It is banned in the UK!! It can only be made available via a prescription from doctor or dentist! So unfortunately, that puts pay to that solution... Sigh...

[invalidusername]

Just a quick note to say the (agoraphobic) wife went into town and had her eyes checked for new glasses today - and then went to the bank to pay in some checks and walked home. I can't believe how well she has done! Such an achievement! 

 

I was working so I couldn't go with her, but I was bricking it the whole time - probably worse than she was! Both home now calming with a cup of tea

[KathyInFL]

That's great IUN, I'm so happy for you and your wife!

 

What does "bricking" it mean?

[invalidusername]

LOL - it means sh*ting oneself. 

 

In England we have a saying that when you are scared, you are sh*ting a brick.

 

https://www.urbandic...rm=shit a brick

[KathyInFL]

LOL - it means sh*ting oneself. 

 

In England we have a saying that when you are scared, you are sh*ting a brick.

 

https://www.urbandic...rm=shit a brick

 

Oh we have that saying too, I just didn't equate bricking with pooping a brick.   

[invalidusername]

Only the British.

 

Update today as it has been 5 weeks on 15mg of Lexapro, 5 weeks off Citalopram and 9 weeks off Duloxetine.

 

Overall, there has been am improvement. A few things keep popping up here and the, but I am dealing with them. I woke up today and my mind was relatively calm. I could snooze with minimal input from my thoughts.

 

I had my first appointment for the day and I was fine, a little fragile, but felt fine. Then after 30 mins, I came over all weak and the shakes started again. This then started the thinking that I  only had breakfast around 40 minutes ago with a cup of tea, so sugar levels are fine, and plenty of vitamins - what on earth is still wrong with me?!? This then set the anxiety off. I am really upset, as I felt the potential to get some confidence back, and that is now shattered.

 

I really would like to know what this is all about.

 

Hat... Could this all be the adrenergic fatigue?? I am so tired of this. It's been around 12/13 days now.

[fishinghat]

How much sugar did you have for breakfast. As you know sugar is a no-no and increases the metabolism.

From your description just sounds like an adrenaline rush and if so will pass.

[invalidusername]

I have around 30g of cereal, of which 8% is sugars, so very little in the morning - I also have half a teaspoon in green tea. 

 

Nothing has changed in diet whatsoever - and it doesn't seem to matter what I eat, or when I eat it, the shakes etc are still there. 

 

Also had a really churning stomach since around 5pm, and a pain around the solar plexus. Although that might have been the hot lemon I drank...

 

So assuming none of that changes, how long can these adrenaline symptoms continue for??

[fishinghat]

I have seen them last for months. The only way to minimize them and break the cycle the quickest is isolation. I know, that is not practical but work, sex, heavy exercise, bad diet, stress, talking, noise, etc are all stimuli and keep the cycle going. Sucks doesn't it?

[invalidusername]

No kidding. Well, isolation is a no-brainer - can't be done as I am the breadwinner and pay the bills. 

 

But I am minimising stress as much as I can, I don't exercise as I can't with this going on (!), my diet is honestly very good and although the living situation is not the best, I am stuck with that. 

 

My only other thought is a potential iron deficiency as I have had bouts of that before - before all this kicked off - a few times. Potassium fits the bill too, but I can't see this being an issue. But I do need to get some good vitamin C supplement. That can't hurt...

[gail]

My sweet Scrat,

Perhaps it's time to move up to 20 mg Lexapro!

From all your posts, I see generalized anxiety. Out of the blue, it's there. And it's gone.

That is why I think that you should go to 20. Lexapro is working for you as we see improvement. So maybe a little push is needed to have a better quality of life.

What are you thoughts my friend and my friends out there? Lovage to you Scratage!

[invalidusername]

Hey gorgeous Gailage!

 

I have awoken from a bit of a rest and feel a little more recharged. I for sure have generalised anxiety - and fed with this damn adrenalin thing at the moment. But when I have a good day, I can put these things to one side and pretend they are not there... like today. I'm having a really nice day. I am not concentrating on anything like that - it is the weekend and I have no more commitments!!

 

I could do 20mg, but only just hit the 5 weeks on 15mg. I do think I should give it the 8 weeks at least. If I go up 5mg I will for sure have some adverse effects and to pile these on top of the existing adrenal crap might just push me a little too far...

 

Again, thoughts are welcomed...

[gail]

Scrat,

Wonderful day! Yeah. Who sang that,it's so beautiful. I have no intention of scrapping your day. That song is old,first one that gets it, go!

[gail]

What a beautiful world by Louis Armstrong.
The video is beautiful to watch!

[invalidusername]

That song always brings a smile to my face - Louis Armstrong was a legend...

[gail]

Same here Scrat, it brings a smile and hope.

[invalidusername]

Quick Sunday update...

 

A good week again this end I am pleased to say. It has been a test of perfection as I am still getting myself worked up in the mornings, but once I am into my day, things get easier. As you all know the mrs had a breakthrough on Thursday with her anxiety, but sent mine totally off course, but that's not the point. So instead of resting afterwards, I overdid it on Friday, still had appointments yesterday, so today I have been to see my friend for a couple of hours and I am now making a beeline for the duvet. Head fog and a little GI complaint - but I have to expect this.

 

Still some way to go, but that is fine. I feel like I am back to when I was gently weaning off the C before I was sent CT. For sure an improvement. 

[invalidusername]

Iron turned up yesterday... Ferrous Sulfate is active ingredient. I took my Lexapro as normal at 1pm and then the iron around 1.50pm. Both on empty stomach.

 

Just after 3pm I had a nasty wave of panic out of nowhere. Then another one about 3.30pm. Got through first appointment, and then driving back had another one last a bit longer. It's horrible. Feel on the edge of an attack and haven't felt this way in over a year.

 

My thoughts are going to be the supplement being taken too close to the Lexapro and affecting the absorption. I thought around 50 minutes would be enough between each... but maybe not?? Thoughts anyone please??

[fishinghat]

I know that iron with zero and +6 valence is used to breakdown psychotropic drugs in wastewater systems but feso4 is a +1 valence but I have used it to treat many contaminants in wastewater systems (although not psych drugs).I will do a little digging.

[fishinghat]

FYI

https://www.pnas.org...6/2047.abstract
Vanderbilt Medical Center investigators have found a surprising link between brain iron levels and serotonin, a neurotransmitter involved in neuropsychiatric conditions ranging from autism to major depression.

 

Additionally, they found that iron levels in the brains of mice with the GK variant were significantly higher than in the ER variant mice. Iron is required to synthesize both serotonin and dopamine, and serotonin receptors are known to regulate iron-carrying proteins.

 

But SERT (serotonin transporter protein) had not been previously shown to control brain iron levels. Follow-up studies with mice where the SERT gene was eliminated (SERT “knock-out” mice) verified a critical role for the transporter in controlling brain iron levels.

 

“Because SERT is such an important drug target in treating anxiety, depression and OCD, we need to stop and think about how iron might be influencing these disorders,” Blakely said.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4253901/
Abstract
Iron is required for appropriate behavioral organization. Iron deficiency results in poor brain myelination and impaired monoamine metabolism. Glutamate and GABA homeostasis is modified by changes in brain iron status. Such changes not only produce deficits in memory/learning capacity and motor skills, but also emotional and psychological problems. An accumulating body of evidence indicates that both energy metabolism and neurotransmitter homeostasis influence emotional behavior, and both functions are influenced by brain iron status. Like other neurobehavioral aspects, the influence of iron metabolism on mechanisms of emotional behavior are multifactorial: brain region-specific control of behavior, regulation of neurotransmitters and associated proteins, temporal and regional differences in iron requirements, oxidative stress responses to excess iron, sex differences in metabolism, and interactions between iron and other metals. To better understand the role that brain iron plays in emotional behavior and mental health, this review discusses the pathologies associated with anxiety and other emotional disorders with respect to body iron status.

[fishinghat]

I assume you are well aware that iron can be absorbed rapidly, reach toxic levels easily, and destroy/damage liver all without any symptoms. Ferritin levels should be checked prior to and every six months during iron supplementation.

[invalidusername]

Thanks for the digging Hat.

 

Good to see something published regarding the importance of iron balance with regard to mental health, but my concern earlier was one of absorption insomuch that supplements are created with effect for better/quicker blood stream access. Something similar happened before taking Citalopram and liquid iron within minutes of each other. Brain zaps, heightened anxiety - turned out to be the iron interupting the absorption of the citalopram. 

 

I figured that given the uber-high absorption formula of the supplements I have, a similar effect had occurred. It settled after around 4 hours, but it sure wasn't nice. 

 

I have had iron deficiency in the past and know what it feels like, but as Noush said, we cannot just "ask" for routine blood tests.  

[fishinghat]

I thought it was interesting that iron has been shown to be involved with the production of serotonin and the functioning of the serotonin transporter while ssri slows the activity of those transporters. It seems logical that iron would have an effect on ssri performance and serotonin levels.

[invalidusername]

It is an interesting read, but there is too much left for further research to be considered significant. 

 

What is interesting also is the divergence of GABA (and subsequent increase thereof) to other parts of the brain as a result of iron deficiency. This certainly needs more looking into. 

 

I think one can read between the lines and see the benefits of any micronutrient in the role of mental health, but there simply isn't enough coverage in academic publications to warrant their use... which is a shame. It all comes down to a question of funding. No-one is going to sit up and take notice of the odd experiment for such factors, regardless of the resultant data. I guess this is why we have to experiment ourselves if no-one else is going to!

[fishinghat]

I am in full agreement.