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Third Time Withdrawal A Charm?


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#121 invalidusername

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Posted 10 July 2019 - 04:57 PM

'nuff said...!


#122 kmrekl217

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:14 PM

If you want to consider that Kmrek I would recommend Zoloft, Lexapro or Prozac. The problem is that it takes 4 to 8 weeks for one to kick in so the dr has to take a wild guess on how much to start with and hope it isn't overkill.

Isn't Prozac also a nightmare to get off? I thought I heard that somewhere.

 

I sure hate the idea of needing meds my whole life and playing this guessing game of what will work :(


#123 fishinghat

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 12:33 PM

Prozac has the longest half life of all the ssri/snri and is generally considered the easiest to wean off of. You may be thinking of Paxil which can be a monster to withdraw from.


#124 invalidusername

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Posted 11 July 2019 - 03:18 PM

Everyone will have their own tale to tell. If someone has only ever been on Prozac and came off too soon, then that would be a nightmare, but as Hat said, it is generally considered easier... providing the withdrawal is undertaken sensibly of course.

 

I wish I had an answer for you regarding the AD's. I am not even giving myself that choice at the moment. Any change of dose/drug and I will go back... even further than I am. It sure is tough, but we're all here with you....


#125 kmrekl217

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Posted 16 July 2019 - 07:48 PM

Been a decent couple days. Manageable brain whooshes. Anxiety better with some stretching and exercising in the morning. My heart still beats very fast most of the time, and I wake up feeling like there's an elephant on my chest trying to suffocate me. But the anxiety hasn't been too crippling. 


#126 gail

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    5 months on cymbalta, scary side effects, to get help and to return the favor if I can.

Posted 16 July 2019 - 10:14 PM

Have you thought of having your elephant checked. It could be something else.
So glad that the anxiety is down.

#127 fishinghat

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 08:55 AM

Very typical. If the anxiety is down some then the other symptoms will follow but there will be relapses during that process. A bit of a rollercoaster. Hang in there.

#128 invalidusername

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 09:09 AM

Elephant is likely tense chest muscles from unconsciously tensing. I am forever doing that. No sooner have I noticed I am tensing, and then relax, I am back to tensing again.

 

I just checked as I was writing this... and I was tensing!


#129 fishinghat

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 09:43 AM

The tensing of muscles is a classic symptom of a chronic adrenergic state which develops during anxiety. The excessive adrenaline causes all voluntary muscles to increase their muscle tone and tighten. This can be significantly reduced by breathing exercises and progressive relaxation techniques.

#130 kmrekl217

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:29 PM

The tensing of muscles is a classic symptom of a chronic adrenergic state which develops during anxiety. The excessive adrenaline causes all voluntary muscles to increase their muscle tone and tighten. This can be significantly reduced by breathing exercises and progressive relaxation techniques.

Went to the dentist this morning due to having some pain. It's clenching. From anxiety.  So anxiety is affecting everything :( I stretch each morning when I get up, meditate, and try to do relaxation breathing during the day when I start feeling anxious or stressed. I might also try a probiotic that is supposedly good for anxiety.


#131 fishinghat

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 01:43 PM

Can't hurt. Are you having any stomach issues with this?

#132 invalidusername

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Posted 17 July 2019 - 02:58 PM

...and what meditation do you do? Do you use an app?


#133 kmrekl217

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 06:17 PM

Can't hurt. Are you having any stomach issues with this?

No, but there's evidence that gut health impacts mental health, so I thought I'd try it. https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4410136/


#134 kmrekl217

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 06:21 PM

...and what meditation do you do? Do you use an app?

No app. I just practice mindfulness meditation. Sitting upright with my hands on my legs, gazing a few feet in front of me with softened eye lids. Then I turn my attention to my breath. I do it for five minutes ( I try to do it twice a day), setting a timer. My mind does wander, but I continually bring my attention back to my breath.

 

https://www.psycholo...ness-meditation


#135 invalidusername

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Posted 18 July 2019 - 07:30 PM

You are talking about a prebiotic here with these findings - and from a researchers perspective, the findings don't hold much weight. Off the back, one of the prebiotics were no better than the placebo, and the participants (45) were taken on with exclusion criteria of having no regular meds for over 3 months and no previous history of mental health problems. 

 

There may be something as far as serotonin production in the gut - and the qualitative properties, but the results crossing the blood brain barrier cannot be measured. There is certainly no harm in it, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the effects being much to write home about - but please let us know.

 

Regarding the meditation - that is great practise. The mind wandering is always an issue... but when you reach a point where the mind completely switches off, you really do know it. It can take me around 30 minutes to achieve this, and even then, it is tricky to keep it there. Sometimes I can't even manage after 30 minutes, but there is no right and wrong - any time spent in meditation is a really good way to reduce anxiety.


#136 fishinghat

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:41 AM

No, but there's evidence that gut health impacts mental health, so I thought I'd try it. https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4410136/


You are so right. A few years back a researcher discovered a layer of nerve cells within the wall of the stomach which provides feed back to the brain in the areas that control emotions. Since that discovery it is often called the "second brain". The reason I mention it is that Zantac is bot only an antacid but it also has a moderate effect in fighting anxiety. I assume it must effect that second brain.

Originally you mentioned taking a good probiotic. I think you will find that more helpful than the prebiotic.

#137 fishinghat

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:48 AM

Some light reading. lol

An overabundance of bad bacteria in the GI system leaves toxic byproducts called lipopolysaccharides which destroy the brain cells that make dopamine. Therefore a good probiotic should be used.

probiotic and serotonin,

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28607543
After probiotic supplementation, we observed a significant increase in concentration of serum serotonin (P = .008) and a decreased level of tryptophan in plasma.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5102282/
Summary of the effects of pro and prebiotics on psychiatric functions.
https://www.huffingt...4b064e1b4b3a842
A layman's summary of the effects of pro and prebiotics on psychiatric functions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25470391
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24554471
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20974015
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21983070
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25879690
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/23384445
and many more


#138 invalidusername

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 08:51 AM

Yes - I  was going by the paper linked which is specifically talking about PREbiotics. My opinion was founded on the circumstances under which it would be used - but I do not know enough of the difference between the prebiotics and probiotic.

 

Link to article detailing what Hat was talking about with the "second brain" - very interesting and provoking read;

 

https://www.prebioti...connection-gut/


#139 fishinghat

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 09:07 AM

I understood what you were saying IUN and agree. I was just providing some additional info.

 

It was good to hear that you had a brief improvement in symptoms a few days ago. Lets hope that keeps happening and lasts longer each time.


#140 invalidusername

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Posted 19 July 2019 - 09:27 AM

Thanks Hat - been a properly tough few days. There are good reasons as to why it has occurred, and I just need to exercise the old "time and patience" rule...

 

...and been going through the info here you have provided.

 

The paper that refers to prebiotics cites the paper kmrekl found as one of "very few" studies. It does however draw reference to a potential benefit of neuroplasticity. Although the interesting finding is the reduction in waking cortisol response - "The cortisol awakening response (CAR) is an increase between 38% and 75% in cortisol levels peaking 30–45 minutes after awakening in the morning".

 

Therefore it is thought to reduce the "vigilance" with which one reacts to these responses, as it states "Overall, then, psychobiotics may exert their beneficial effects on mood through modulation of neural networks associated with emotional attention."

 

Note however this only applied to the B-GOS (trans-galactooligosaccharide), which according to other studies works very well on GI issues such as bloating, flatulence and so forth;

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30109908

 

Wait... just found one reference to reduction in anxiety here;

 

https://www.scienced...ligosaccharides

 

So whilst there is still very limited evidence for the reduction in symptoms by comparison to probiotics, the one to go for if you were going to give it a try would be BIMUNO;

 

https://www.amazon.c...MUNO/s?k=BIMUNO

 

However, given the choice, I would opt for probiotics purely for the abundance of additional research available. Of course, there is always the option of taking both, but again, I do not know enough about this - surely it would be like having 2 anti-virus programs on your computer, one would be just overdoing what the first one should do...

 

Anyway - that is my 10 cents worth from what I can find...


#141 kmrekl217

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 10:18 AM

Been doing okay at 12 mg. Anxiety is still a challenge, but more manageable. I'm scared of it getting worse again if I go down again because one day I need off this stupid drug. 

 

I haven't started taking the probiotic yet because for some reason I'm anxious it will mess me up with this taper. That may be an illogical thought, but it's making me delay starting the probiotic nonetheless.


#142 fishinghat

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 11:21 AM

Hi Kmrek

When going through the withdrawal it really screws up your logic, clarity of thought and makes you paranoid. No need to add to your anxiety. When things settle more and you feel you can handle it that is when to start.

#143 invalidusername

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 06:12 PM

Hat really has a way with words at times like this - he is spot on. 

 

I was (and still am to an extent) paranoid about things, but when you are as sensitive as we are, you can't help but overthink. I'm sure Hat will remember the day I took one... yes one... super-iron tablet. I took it at the same time as my AD dose and all hell broke loose - and put me right under for about 3-4 days.

 

As and when you do - start slow, and for goodness sake, make sure you take them at least 2 hours apart from the dreaded pill.


#144 kmrekl217

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 03:31 PM

Often I have no idea what's returning symptoms of depression and anxiety and what's the withdrawal. I'm doing a lot of work in therapy to really deal with trauma, and I'm hoping after that I can taper lower. My therapist and psychiatrist don't exactly align on whether going off meds is a good idea. I'm stuck in the middle trying to figure it out, what I actually think is best for me. They both say they're not invested in what decision I make, but it's hard not to feel influenced. Therapist thinks I'm just naturally anxious and depressed and need meds; psychiatrist thinks it's largely situational/meds aren't that effective anymore/having more emotions will help me be more human and work through past trauma.


#145 invalidusername

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 05:40 PM

They are both there only to guide you... not to influence you - as hard as that might be. But keep telling yourself that you are the expert of you, you are the captain of this ship. As trained as the therapists are, they can never know you any better than yourself. Ask the questions, weigh up their response and find it within yourself how to proceed.

 

I don't believe anyone is "naturally" anxious and depressed. It will have been instilled by circumstances, but it almost all cases it can be reversed if approached correctly. Pills are the plaster and are there to get you to the point that you can get yourself feeling better. Nothing more. In my case I would fit into what the psychiatrists says. Anyone who has been chronically ill with drug-induced problems is going to have the situational style. I am in no way the same as I was 2 years ago when this all started. I can clearly see that where I am now is as a direct result of having been a medication guinea pig. A year of my life - I am not going to say wasted as it wasn't - but learned. I should be glad it happened sooner rather than later as I at least have a better idea of the direction I am heading.

 

Hope this has helped a little for you...


#146 fishinghat

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 08:31 AM

Working your way through trauma in therapy can be very rewarding....in the long run. As long as you are dealing with it that way the uncertainty and instability will be there BUT it is your best way for long-term success.

#147 kmrekl217

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:30 PM

I have been so tired lately. I don't know if it's due to another condition I have or the withdrawal. I know Effexor isn't completely like Cymbalta, but I didn't experience any fatigue when I tried going off Cymbalta.

 

I have to drag myself through the day. Coffee makes me too anxious/jittery.

 

Anyone else experience fatigue with antidepressant withdrawal?

 

Part of it could be that this is just an emotionally exhausting process?


#148 fishinghat

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 12:35 PM

Most experience fatigue with withdrawal. This also could be because of the switch. It takes Effexor around 4 to 6 weeks to fully kick in. Until then things may vary a lot.

#149 kmrekl217

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 11:31 AM

Haven't checked in lately because things have been pretty steady at 12 mg., which is great. I keep telling myself it's not a race to get off this med. Anxiety has been manageable, and I've been using some good coping skills. 


#150 invalidusername

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Posted 02 September 2019 - 06:16 PM

Great to hear Kmrekl... sounds like you have got onto an even plateau with it all. Hope this can be maintained for you and that you have some relief from previous symptoms.





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