513 replies to this topic

[invalidusername]

I am sorry to hear about the arthritis jujube.... I am very lucky I don't have it in my wrists and fingers in my line of work, although I do get ganglions on the wrist joint, but they can't be anything like what you have to endure... poor sausage...

[invalidusername]

The ABRSM can be very tough sometimes! 

 

I'm glad (if that's the right thing to say) that you also experienced the same with the melatonin. I found a discussion on Reddit, which confirmed it;

FromThatOtherPlace

"Every time I take melatonin I wake up severely depressed, almost like I'd just come off MDMA and all my serotonin levels were depleted.This happens in any dosage even @ 0.3mcg."

 

Atworkwasalreadytake

"Ditto"

 

Sonicflood

"Same exact effect in trial with same exact dosage here."

 

SOURCE: https://www.reddit.c..._on_depression/

[fishinghat]

FDA recommends not to exceed 3 mg even at night due to depression and lethargy in the morning. I would suggest to both of you that you cut your doses in half and try again. I for example get great relief at 0.2 mg.

IUN, did you say mcg? No way!! that is almost nothing.

[fishinghat]

NM, on your bottle it should say how many mg per ml.

[invalidusername]

Hat - Is 10mg per 1ml serving on our bottles...

 

...so your 0.25ml NM will translate to 2.5mg of Melatonin.

 

Have you got a link to the FDA document, Hat?

[invalidusername]

0.2mg?!?

 

I think we'd be lucky to get that in one drop!!

[invalidusername]

Answered on your behalf sausage!!

 

Glad you are lovely and relaxed - its a wonderful thing

 

Sweet dreams love-honey xx

[fishinghat]

IUN - "Hat - Is 10mg per 1ml serving on our bottles..."

NM - "10mgs or 59mls" Which is the same as 1 mg in 5.9ml.

By the way 30 drops equals 1 ml if you want to calculate how many drops to take to get o.2 mg for your products.

I thought you two were using the same product.

Also IUN, you posted "so your 0.25ml NM will translate to 2.5gm of Melatonin."

I know you meant 2.5 mg not gm but I wouldn't want someone later to take it wrong and make a mistake. You might want to edit that.

I will try to dig up that info tomorrow and post it.

[invalidusername]

Good grief! Thank you Hat - yes - have edited!

 

We are using the same product, and 1ml does have 10mg of melatonin. The 10mg is the dose size and the bottle hold 59ml and has 59 servings, assuming you want the 10mg dose. Otherwise it is 118 doses of 5mg, 236 doses of 2.5mg and so on. Works out a lot cheaper... and it tastes nice!

 

I will be very interested to read the FDA taking on it... thank you.

[gail]

NM, I'll trade my mind with yours! For now, that is! Love you!

[invalidusername]

Thinking of you NM... all the best with your shopping. Mine is all done, but feeling emotionally defensive today - everything is up and on high alert after such an unexpected week of nasties...

[fishinghat]

OK so we established that 1ml does have 10mg of melatonin. That would indicate that 1 drop would contain 0.33 mg which is slightly more than I use.

IUN - I will do some digging later this morning to see if I can find that information. Be back later.

[fishinghat]

Hi NM. By the way there was a typo in my previous post which I have corrected.

My solution is 3 mg for 30 drops which is the same as 0.1 mg/drop. A totally different concentration than what you and IUN use. I would suggest you try a 1 drop dose next time. If that doesn't help you can always try a higher dose the next time. That is why it is so important to start with a low dose and work up when taking a new med/supplement as it helps minimize the risk of significant side effects.

[invalidusername]

You are right Hat.

 

Start low and work up. I often forget how sensitive I am to all manner of things. 

 

NM - well done for getting your chores done. Now have a well deserved rest! My alerts have subsided a little, but being held at a point due to horrible head pressure/pain... again. I am wondering whether stress can influence the severity? I read so many posts about people suffering from head fog due to stress, and I think that all these meds have created something of a post-traumatic stress on my system. It does worry me...

[fishinghat]

I found my notes on the melatonin and not going high on dose due to depression, etc but there was no reference. My bad.

I believe my consideration of larger doses related to causing depression may have been due to the first article given below.

In addition there is a couple of excellent articles on the best doses to take to get good sleep and avoid a hangover in the morning. (around 0.3 mg)



https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12043836
Inhibition of dopamine release by melatonin has been demonstrated in specific areas of the mammalian central nervous system (hypothalamus, hippocampus, medulla-pons, and retina). Antidopaminergic activities of melatonin have been demonstrated in the striatum.
Many other articles document the decrease in dopamine production with increased levels of melatonin.

Note - This would indicate that patients with depression may want to limit their use of melatonin due to possible lowering of dopamine and increased depression.


https://dailymed.nlm...3b-9faf7ec7e04c
Insert for prescription Melatonin
DIRECTIONS: 1-10 drops under the tongue, 3 times a day or as directed by a health professional. Consult a physician for use in children under 12 years of age.
DESBIO NDC 57520-0729-1 HOMEOPATHIC MELATONIN 1 FL OZ (30 ML)

https://www.ehealthm...n/side-effects/
The data is obtained from a number of sources including the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
Common Melatonin side effects: by duration, gender, age
17,149 people reported to have side effects when taking Melatonin.
Among them, 621 people (3.62%) have Depression

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24802882
Optimal dosages for melatonin supplementation therapy in older adults: a systematic review of current literature.
we advise the use of the lowest possible dose of immediate-release formulation melatonin to best mimic the normal physiological circadian rhythm of melatonin and to avoid prolonged, supra-physiological blood levels.


The Role of Dopamine and Sleep
Research has found that dopamine plays a bigger role in sleep regulation than previously believed. It controls the production of the sleep hormone melatonin. Research suggests that lack of sleep may reduce the number of dopamine receptors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18057326
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12043836
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/7534345
and others

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/27367919
The highest melatonin secretion was observed at 3:00a.m. in severely depressed females. In the groups with mild and moderate depression, melatonin secretion at 3:00a.m. was comparable between males and females
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11535940
The mean melatonin concentration at each of the chosen hours was higher in persons with MD than in the control, but the differences reached statistical significance only at certain night hours. In both groups the nocturnal rise in melatonin secretion began at 12 midnight, reaching its peak at 2 am, to reach low values by 8 am, similar to the values from the previous morning.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28012610
Moreover, melatonin is known to modulate thyrotropin expression in the thyrotrophic cells of the pars tuberalis of the pituitary gland, and overproduction of melatonin in the autumn or winter months may cause excessive signaling in the pars tuberalis, diminishing its release of thyrotropin and resulting in central hypothyroidism. Both conditions reduced serotonin production and central hypothyroidism may cause depression.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/11600532
The physiologic melatonin dose (0.3 mg) restored sleep efficiency (P < 0.0001), acting principally in the midthird of the night; it also elevated plasma melatonin levels (P < 0.0008) to normal. The pharmacologic dose (3.0 mg), like the lowest dose (0.1 mg), also improved sleep; however, it induced hypothermia and caused plasma melatonin to remain elevated into the daylight hours.


https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15639542
it is suggested that melatonin exerts its analgesic actions not by binding to opioid receptor subtypes but by binding to its own receptors and increasing the release of beta-endorphin.
As well as ...
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/12579851
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/3361078
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/1668619
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5038497/
and more.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22998742
Buspar (15mg) and Melatonin (3 mg) yielded the best anti-depressant effect of any combination concentration tested. (See Melatonin below)
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25156283
Buspar and melatonin in combination is anxiolytic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5263069/
Poor Quality Control of Over-the-Counter Melatonin: What They Say Is Often Not What You Get.

[fishinghat]

It should be also noted that there are many medical research articles that document the use of melatonin to reduce depression but most are in conditions which involve dopamine imbalance such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc. as well as those already using some psychotropic drugs.

[invalidusername]

Yes - I have seen a number of articles mention that it can aid depression, but this is when taken evenly and not in the middle of the night like I did! I am sure taking melatonin at the point of serotonin production is not a good idea. I was trying to find something relating to that, but as you can imagine, it is quite a specific set of data, which is unlikely to be documented...

[invalidusername]

Natural - kicks in early morning - although mine may be delayed as I have DSPD (delayed sleep phase disorder). Again, something that isn't well documented, so I don't know if my melatonin is late, but serotonin stays the same as normal, or whether the serotonin is delayed as well...

 

But I am 95% sure it was the melatonin that cause the depression, but b*llocks to trying it again to find out! 

[invalidusername]

Mixed opinions about that - some have said they do not develop a tolerance, whilst others have had to stop as they found their tolerance increasing to the point it got too expensive. Doesn't appear to be clear statistics about it. I'm sure such studies will be forthcoming as these things take off, but for now, it is a case of suck it and see.

 

Other choose to do 2 weeks on, 1 off so prevent tolerance, much like with ashwagandha and similar.

 

You could always try what Hat has just posted on my thread...

 

https://start.att.ne...ategory/finance

[invalidusername]

Have used Ash many times and yes, helps for mild anxiety - takes the edge off and in my case, helps to wind down for sleep. Thing is, you would get something similar to a low dose of Kratom, so I don't used it quite so much. I still use some during the day for something not quite so sedating. It also has other benefits outside of anti-anxiety, but you would need to take it long term.

 

The cheap stuff is not worth it as it take the leaf, stem and roots and grinds them all up - there is nothing standardised about it - this is measured in withenoids (sp?). To get the best, I have always suggested KSM-66 which is a full-spectrum and standardised formula which uses the most potent part of the plants root. The powder is often a lot lighter, and smells a little sweeter too.