260 replies to this topic

[DThiessen]

Okay I will try this thank you. I will report back on it maybe after 10 days to see if things settle. In the mean time, I See a Homeopath tomorrow am and will let everyone know if I learned anything useful or helpful from it

[Driven]

Guys,

 

Thanks for the continued input on my situation.  I am also happy to see this thread helping DThiessen and others with some recommendations from FH, IUN, etc.  I appreciate you guys.

 

I am still in a state of pretty severe struggle.  The severe head pain has continued to lessen with some days being better than others.  I don't feel anywhere near normal but my cognitive functioning is slightly better than that of a a few months back.  A quick review of my symptom journal shows VERY slow progress but it does appear to be some progress indeed.

 

Floaters - I read some of your input and I appreciate it.  It is like a spider burrowed into both of my eye and laid eggs and baby spiders have hatched.  It is crazy the amount of cobweb-like floaters I now have in both eyes.  Every time i turn my head it is like a fishbowl of debris swaying from side to side. A couple very large grey/dark floaters in each eye that float around the central axis which are the most frustrating.  This alone has ramped my depression to a new level.  I am praying they ease over time as my doctor says they "might".  When looking at some while holding a conversation they float right over their face and blur them out.  I've always had a few floaters but these are present 100% of the time and are easily distinguishable in any lighting environment instead of just looking at a bright computer screen, iphone, sky, etc.  it is maddening really.  I've already researched my options.  I know how you feel about laser vitreolysis IUN and I somewhat agree.  My opthamologist does offer this but I'm not sure I'm a great candidate with the amount that I have.  The only other option is a vitrectomy which is an invasive surgery that does pose risks (cataracts, etc).  Finding a retinal surgeon that will do a floater only vitrectomy can sometimes be tough but it is good to know the option exists.  I'm here to say...my case of floaters is not average for sure.  I realize even thinking about a vitrectomy is obsessive at this point but i just need to know that a possible solution does exist.

Vision - My vision (separate from the floaters) has taken a couple of steps back again.  I am having a lot of difficulty with some blurred and double vision throughout the day which started to increase 3-4 days ago.  It is almost like everything is a bit "over exposed".  Light colored walls and flat surfaces have a bit of a grainy look and it is like my eyes take a bit longer to focus after look from one thing to the next.  I've read about people talking about visual snow and I pray to god this doesn't persist for me.  I have had issues all along since coming off Cymbalta and it appeared that my short 5 week run of Prozac definitely helped my vision issues as they seemed to ramp way down.  I am convinced the cessation of Prozac caused the huge increase in floaters though.  Now my vision stuff is ramping back up again after the short duration of Prozac...perhaps it was helping...and now I've pulled the plug.  UGH!

 

Zyprexa - I make my p-doc reiterate to me that I'm on a very low dose and that he's had many patients come off it successfully over the years.  He reassures me it will not be as bad as Cymbalta when the time comes.  I explained that I will come off it at snails pace compared to what he recommends which he is great with...Not ready to taper that until more stability from Cymbalta however.

 

I thought I was getting over some of the vision stuff but I am in a pretty anxious and depressed state.  I'm honestly in one of the lowest points of this whole journey due to my vision being so odd again.  I've read some forum stuff where people speak of very similar symptoms that last for a VERY long time.  I know, this is bad to read about but I just want to solve my problem and figure out a path. 

Do you think the vision symptoms are just w/d related and will dissipate over time?  Please, any ray of hope that it is w/d related and will eventually work out is all I'm thinking about now...The blurred/weird vision is as bad as it's been during any point of my w/d.  I am still driving but it is questionable at times.

 

Driven

[fishinghat]

If it improves and then worsens it is most likely withdrawal. If it was an eye condition/disease then it would not usually come and go like that. Still think it is withdrawal. Hard to be sure though.

[DThiessen]

I would say def the withdrawal as per what I experienced when mine was at its worst - my depth perception was so off I couldn't even grab a banana bunch at the grocery store because I was reaching too far ahead or too far behind it haha like it was so strange and it felt like I was walking on a boat that was in the middle of a rough lake, black snakes in the sky, fuzziness as if my eyes were lagging behind my head. yep had it all. All gone now. But like I said, I still have some paraesthesia so that was my longer lasting symptom. Everyone has a different longer lasting one and it seems that this may be yours my friend. One of the 5 main things of SSRI withdrawal is "sensory disturbances" - which can include any and all senses. YAYYY

 

Obviously I am no Doctor you could always go get it checked out. But like I said I went a few times for that exact purpose and they verified there it was withdrawal. 

[DThiessen]

Quick question about your head pain - was it headache/migraine or is it muscular head pain for you (like sixes of temples down into the neck/occipital muscles that spasm and act as if they are shortened/extremely tight and tense)

[Driven]

DThiessen,

Thank you.  On the vision stuff, my eye doctor (who is a good family friend) just chalks it up for w/d but he also is pretty surprised about it lasting 7 months too.  Thanks for the encouragement about it being w/d, it does really help.

 

As for my head pain, I had really severe headaches that persisted about 6 months total.  They would definitely change in severity but it wasn't until about 1 month ago when things settled down quite a bit.  i would describe the pain as both surface pain on the brain as well as pain in certain lobes.  It was not typical of what I hear people explain as brain zaps.  It was pretty sharp and it would be my left lobe on day, right lobe the next, back lobe, front, etc.  It was almost as if that region of my brain was healing...It felt very different from a routine tension headache or anything that radiated down the neck.  I started a small dose of Prozac around the 5th month and that caused quite a bit if added pain that felt almost like a sunburn under my scalp for almost a week.  Again, things finally calmed down about a month ago.

 

Driven

[DThiessen]

Yah these headaches can be all sorts of evils in the way they present. For sure.

Tomorroe I will let you guys know a out my homeopath appt.

Ended up in the ER however today with severe muscle trembling tension pain twitching etc and to my shock he actually knew about these Parkinson like states during AD withdrawal and he prescribed me Clonidine FINALLY I have been begging my fam doc for this for 5 months. I'm so pumped, hoping it works, does anyone know how long it should take to really get in the system and start working. It is supposed to lower cortisol which mine is currently sky rocket, reduce spasticity, reduce blood pressure, etc pretty much everything I need it do. I mean gee apparently it cam even help with the paraeyhedias so I am really hoping on this kne

[fishinghat]

Clonidine is a wonderful drug for most. It takes about an hour to take effect. How long it takes to reach max concentration in the body depends on the dose and frequency. I assume 0.1 mg once or twice a day?

[gail]

So happy for you that finally you got the clonidine!

[DThiessen]

Yes same so happy! He has me 0.1 , twice a day. So although I notice BP lowers in about an hour, no relief yet from other stmltoms. That being said it's only been 24 hours ha

[invalidusername]

Hi Driven...

 

First up, it is good to hear that you have seen some improvement, even if just a little. 

 

Regarding the floaters, I am fortunate that mine are only really that bad in brighter light. I have some on the computer screen, but I can ingnore them. Outside in brighter light they can be anywhere, and when I look at the sky, it is like you said with the spider web. But I have just accepted that. For the surgery option, you need to know that this is a last resort to something that will not heal. The question is how long do you give it? That I cannot say. But if they are as you say, then I can well imagine that it is sufficient to cause depression of some magnitude.

 

I'm with Hat's diagnosis in so much that if it comes and goes, it means it is capable of being removed further and that if it was a persistent condition, it would remain rather than fluctuate. So with three of us voting for WD, that should calm you a little...

 

DT - I am with the others in being very happy that you finally have an rx for the clonodine. Will be very interested to see how it goes for you. And yes, 24 hours is only a start, it will need a few more days to build up a little...

[fishinghat]

Hey DT, have you noticed a decrease in anxiety?

[DThiessen]

Okay so only been like 48 hrs on Clonidine - so far LOVING it. I don't want to get ahead of myself but this is what it has done so far:

I should note, my family doc did not give to me, I had to go to ER again because of severe muscle tension/spasms that I know are withdrawal induced and the doctor said he knows about withdrawal muscle spasticity and actually even gave me a trial of Clonidine there to help! Literal tears ran down my face because I have been trying to get this med for months now with zero success and here this doctor said he knows it works as a fact and is more than happy to both prescribe me it and start me on it asap right there in the ER... God bless him! He said he is sorry I am going through protracted withdrawal and wishes he could help further.

Here is what I have noticed so far:

1) Great reduction on anxiety

2) Reduction in heart rate (FINALLY - mine has been 130 BPM since the withdrawal started)

3) Almost slightly euphoric

4) Decrease in head pain starting (again very soon to tell)

5) Decrease in muscle tremor starting

6) Dry mouth (at this point, this side effect is laughable compared to the hell of all the other symptoms)

 

I will continue to let you all know.

 

Homeopath appt Friday: These are very individualized. My salts/herbs probably wouldn't apply to anyone else as it would so specific to me but OVERALL he knew my cortisol needed to be lowered to regain homeostasis and I am now on a tincture to make that happen. Whether or not it works, I am going to continue. Every part of your boy needs to be nurtured and in good functioning in order for the ideal healing conditions. Again, I would highly suggest seeing one during your withdrawal. 

[gail]

Improvement! At last. Happy for you! Love!

[fishinghat]

That just proves that not all good meds are addictive and have withdrawals. I am really glad for you.

 

What is your bp running?

[invalidusername]

I couldn't get prescribed Clonidine during my withdrawal either - not by GP, nor the p-doc...

 

So glad that you have been able to get some finally and that it seems to be doing what it says!

[DThiessen]

My BP is now running 121/75 now since the Clonidine. Slightly lethargic but again that's laughable right now. It says it can take a few weeks or even up to 4 months to reao all the benefit of what it is going to do so I will be staying on it as long a nothing funky happens. 

 

I had to take an Ativan 3 days in a row on the weekend due to the muscle spasms that were so painful - is there a basic or general idea of how much one can take / how often before the body thinks it needs it and therefore one would experience a withdrawal from it? Can I take one a week and be fine? I haven't taken one in 2 months

[fishinghat]

It varies a lot. For me it is 1 or 2 a week for around 3 weeks but I am very sensitive to benzo addiction. For most, if you take it once or twice a week there is little problem.

[DThiessen]

Does anyone know if Clonidine increases or decreases Serotonin? I know it tends to decrease dopamine, but have not been able to find much research out about Serotonin. I read somewhere that a person can get Clonidine Syndrome which is a lot like Serotonin Syndrome! However, it needs to be in high doses from 5mg to 40mg which I am only at 0.1 X 2 a day so I think I am fine.

 

Sorry, just having a worrisome moment after some research! 

[gail]

Hello,

I'm amazed to see the good effects that Clonidine did for you.
fH will answer your question
Isn't there something else that our friend could take for muscle spasms?
And, finally, does Ativan work good on the spasms? Love

[invalidusername]

https://deepblue.lib....pdf?sequence=1

 

Not much research as you say, but what I have found points to a decrease from the h/campus. Note these were larger doses kg for mg... but it is one answer to the question.

 

Don't know if Hat has more in his library that can corroborate this theory.

[fishinghat]

Clonidine/Dopamine

There are 6 types of alpha adrenergic receptors (adrenaline receptors). Clonidine has a moderate attration to all 6 (K values of 43 - 316). The lower the K value the more atracted it is to the receptor.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2569981and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9678653
Dopamine itself does not effect dopamine directly but it is THEORIZED that clonidine reduces adrenaline release and that increases gaba production which lowers dopamine levels BUT only in the nucleus accumbens which is a very small area of the brain.

Clonidine has no direct effect on dopamine receptors.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clonidine/Serotonin

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/8102468and
https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/1383883
Clonidine increases the release of gaba in the hippocampus which reduces nerve activation including the release of serotonin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/6595491
There were no changes in serum serotonin levels with long term cloidine treatment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clonidine Syndrome - A term often used to describe a clonidine overdose situation.

 

[DThiessen]

Day 5 of Clonidine and stopping - this drug is HORRIBLE for me and I am not sure if anyone else has experienced this on 0.1mg:

 

Massive migraines

Extremely dry mouth

Nausea

Chest pain

Back pain and overall muscle pain everywhere

Leg cramps are excruciating

Kidney pain

 

I had NONE of this before Clonidine so I am stopping after 5 days - please tell me this will all go away. 

[gail]

So sorry to hear that after five days of usage. It had looked promising....what about the anxiety?
Let's hear what FH has to say about this. Love

[fishinghat]

Well, not much choice. If you think that it is the clonidine then stop it. It takes about 24 hours for most of it to clear so after that the symptoms should be gone. Dry mouth is common with clonidine but not the other symptoms. You aren't taking a beta blocker are you? Like atenolol, propranolol or such.

[fishinghat]

Here are the FDA statistics on the chance of these symptoms during the start of clonidine use.

Massive migraines 0.7%
Extremely dry mouth 1.0%
Nausea 6.8%
Chest pain 3.5%
Back pain and overall muscle pain everywhere 3.0%
Leg cramps are excruciating 0.1%
Kidney pain 0.0%

Can I ask what other meds and supplements are you on?

[DThiessen]

I am also on Vitamin D and Magnesium. I recall something similar when taking D last time. Only on 1000it but it's like since withdrawal everything gives me every bad side effect.

[fishinghat]

Well, looks like it could be either one.

Vitamin D
Massive migraines 1%
Extremely dry mouth 0.9%
Nausea 6.8%
Chest pain 2.3%
Back pain and overall muscle pain everywhere 3.3%
Leg cramps are excruciating 0.0%
Kidney pain 0.0%

[fishinghat]

cholecalciferol magnesium

Applies to: Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol), magnesium
GENERALLY AVOID: Use of magnesium-containing products with a vitamin D analog may increase the risk of hypermagnesemia.

More to follow.

[fishinghat]

Symptoms of hypermagnesemia

Muscle and generalised weakness
Decreased reflexes (Neuromuscular depression)
Hypotension
Disordered cardiac rhythm (cardiac arrhythmias)
Drowsiness
Decreased alertness and concentration
Decreased rate of breathing/respiratory paralysis
CNS depression
Coma


hypermagnesemia usually causes hypocalcemia (low blood calcium levels)

Symptoms of hypocalcemia

muscle stiffness
muscle spasms/cramps
paresthesias, or feelings of pins and needles, in the extremities
changes in mood, such as anxiety, depression, or irritability
memory issues
hypotension (low blood pressure)
difficulty speaking or swallowing
fatigue