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Need Help - 17.5 Weeks Off Rapid Taper


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#181 fishinghat

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 04:19 PM

Adult Symptoms of Vitamin D toxicity

Abdominal pain
Blood in stool
Chest pain
Constipation
Cough
Diarrhea
Difficulty swallowing
Dizziness
Eye discomfort and redness
Foot pain or ankle pain
Foot swelling or leg swelling
Headaches
Heart palpitations
Hip pain
Knee pain
Low back pain
Nasal congestion
Nausea or vomiting
Neck pain
Numbness or tingling in hands
Pelvic pain: Female
Pelvic pain: Male
Shortness of breath
Shoulder pain
Sore throat
Urinary problems
Vision problems
Wheezing

#182 DThiessen

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 05:36 PM

Wow so I have most of the above. I've been taking vitamin d 1000iu for 3 weeks now.. but from what I read that could never induce a toxicity... but now I dont know... what are your thoughts

#183 fishinghat

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 06:29 PM

Supplements are a can of worms. If you look at the ebook there is a partial list of what vitamins and minerals raise or lower other vitamins or minerals. I am a strong believe in NOT taking vitamins or minerals un less a blood test is taken first to show that they are needed. A set of blood tests would tell you if any of that is part of your problem.


#184 DThiessen

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 10:45 PM

That's a very good point. Yep I am going to stop both the clonidine and d for now and see how it goes.. for now..

#185 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 12:26 PM

Hey FH - I feel like I need to start a new topic regarding this head pain / headaches or should I just continue on this post? If I should start a new one, how do I as I can't seem to be able to and have some info on the head pains / headaches !


#186 fishinghat

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 01:13 PM

You can either add to this thread or start a new one. To start a new one just go to the section you want (such as Medical Support) and click on the button on the right side that says 'start new topic.'.


#187 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 03:11 PM

Oh ok. Well basically what I wanted to say is I seen a Neurologist yesterday for the first time during all this and I got in under urgent because of the crippling head pain and she told me that she says withdrawal headaches / migraines can present as many different types of pain in the head and are all perceived differently by individuals. But essentially is a major factor when serotonin levels drop (hence many migraine medications giving an instant boost of Serotonin such as anything that is a triptan). And to second this, your article you posted the other day that said headaches is one of the leading factors as to why people can not tolerate quitting their AD makes sense. 

 

Essentially she said, I will heal, however it may take some time (well no kidding!). So she is going to give me 200 units of Botox injections every 3 months for the next 9 months or so to alleviate and hopefully reset the migraine pattern.

 

I have tried Botox for this a few months ago but not going to lie I did it at a medical spa where they also do things like lip filler etc in the beauty industry. My neurologist said they only used 10 units on you so that wouldn't do anything except maybe aggravate the head pain and also that they are not certified to do the placements in which she is going to do for it. 

 

I do plan to do it I think as it sounds promising as I have exhausted all other methods (Note: L Theanine did work so so well but the serotonin made me skin prickle/burn/tingle and I couldn't tolerate it). Any thoughts on this - does this sound sketchy to anyone?


#188 fishinghat

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 03:27 PM

It sounds like that dr new what she was talking about.

 

A caution about botox. It is a poison but in the dosages drs use it is relatively safe. However, many do have allergic reactions. If you had it before then that is not an issue. I say hive it a try and see how it goes.

 

On a side note your body converts tryptophan to serotonin. Tryptophan tablets will help but that withdrawal is nearly as bad as an antidepressant. I would start with increasing your dietary intake of poultry meat. It is the meat highest in tryptophan and studies have shown that your body will absorb what it needs and no extra.


#189 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 03:58 PM

Ya she was pretty smart in that. She also had to see 2 separate patients on separate occasions that were coming off of psycohtropic drugs that had burning skin issues so she said even though uncommon, it is def withdrawal / neurologic symptom. 

 

I know... I am hesitant about that DOSE of botox. The first time I had it done it worked wonders. The second time I was unable to tell and at the same time was dealing with the burning skin thing quite severe and thought maybe the botox made it worse?.. is that in my mind?.. or could that have potentially happened? Also was unsure if it gave me muscle soreness.. which apparently it can do. Like I don't want this to create more pain as I can't deal with more.. so yah, I am kind of overwhelmed  / hesitant. 


#190 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 04:35 PM

There are some people out there that say they never healed from their withdrawal because their serotonin receptors never built back up / turned back on. How legit is that and I feel like there is typically probably other health problems that they may be dealing with at the same time that may interfere with said healing or cause other symptoms in which they think they are not healing? Does it take approx 2 years for the receptors to all turn back on? Is it possible that some die and never come back or return to pre AD states?


#191 invalidusername

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 04:58 PM

In a word. Bollocks.

 

Receptors aren't "turned back on" per se either. They are re-grown.

 

If a persons brain could not restore HT receptors, there would be a more serious underlying problem which should have been picked up elsewhere. The likelihood of an SSRI doing that is slim - and the only slim possibilities is if that person was on large dose for significant period of time. But even then there is more to it than that, which I am not sure you need to know, but I am sure Hat will delight in filling in the spaces :D

 

But regarding the 2 years - this much is true... but is considered a maximum timeframe.


#192 fishinghat

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 05:33 PM

The studies that deal with changes in receptors due to ADs, benzos, narcotics etc. indicate 2 years for synapses to recover but it is difficult to tell if any die as nerve cells die constantly and new ones are born all at the same time. It should be stated that the time does vary from person to person. Age, weight and other variables all effect the healing time. Increasing things like bdnf and nitrous oxide levels can all help increase neuroplasticity but those type of drugs/supplements have their own issues.

 

The issue is not just a matter of healing. Two changes have taken place in the synapses. The shape of the serotonin and norepinephrine receptors have changed to fit the Cymbalta molecule AND the protein that transports the serotonin has also changed shapes slightly. The body must recover its ability to produce the right shape transporter as well as the repair of the synapses.

 

Now, as far as being permanent, well that is a good question. Certainly from what researchers have seen it appears as if the great majority do heal. It should also be noted that misshaped receptors do occur naturally from exposure to alcohol, .  gasoline fumes, pesticides and so so much more. So if a researcher sees some misshaped synapses they would not be able to tell what the cause is. In addition, while on the AD or during recovery was the individual exposed to alcohol, diesel fumes, paint, solvents, etc?  There would be no way to know.

 

OK, that was the easy part, lol. The complicated part comes when you talk about conditioned reflexes. After having anxiety or withdrawal you may return to normal with all your receptors BUT yo0ur brain has become conditioned to respond to stress differently. Now when stress happens your brain automatically kicks into high gear and over reacts to stress. This is not due to any nerve damage but a conditioned reflex.

 

A great example of this is 'Pavlov's Dog".. Pavlov was a scientist from a long time ago. He would ring a bell every time he feed his dog. After a period of time he would ring the bell but NOT feed the dog or even have food in the area BUT the dog would still produce large amounts of saliva at the sound of a bell for months and months in the future. After a while the dog would barely respond physically to the bell BUT the saliva would still flow. The dog had been condition to that reflex action.


#193 invalidusername

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 06:01 PM

I am sure Hat will delight in filling in the spaces :D

 

Told you.... LMAO

 

Excellent post though brother Hat.


#194 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 06:33 PM

This all makes sense yes thank you.

 

So essentially I may have all my receptors restored but my body has to learn now how to manage all its functions without the constant excess supply of serotonin - thus creating "stress" responses to many things.

 

The withdrawal headaches though are just HORRENDOUS - never seen anything like it. 


#195 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 06:37 PM

Also to note - also a horrible WD effect is pain sensitivity - a  bruise thumb feels like my hand is being squished in a grate, or how a torn hangnail can send shivers of pain literally throughout my entire body. Hope this goes away! I had the flu the other week and I literally thought I was dying - not joking at all. 


#196 invalidusername

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 07:00 PM

Think of it this way...

 

You used to be a chef, but now you have forgotten your recipes. You have to experiment with the ingredients to get the dishes right again.

 

Hope that's not too elusive for you :)


#197 DThiessen

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Posted 27 February 2020 - 08:05 PM

Hahah no, that is GREAT!! That is a good one - gotta remember this one. haha.

 

K here is another thing I have found in the last few weeks - WHEY Protein - takes ALL the head pain away in about 2 hours. Does make my skin tingle/burn though a little bit to moderate. 

I had ZERO idea this was going on and just put two and two together - every time I would have one of my new protein drinks (high in cow and whey proteins) I would feel SIGNIFICANTLY better and my skin would tingle/burn. I knew there was serotonin coming from somewhere. I literally just found out that Whey protein contains large amounts of tryptophan - so this makes sense. Now here is what I am wondering....

 

1) Is me taking a protein drink with whey powder and cows protein the same as taking Tryptophan supplement in the sense that it will cause withdrawal if I stop?.... Being that it is a whey protein and cows protein, will my body get rid of the excess unlike Tryptophan supplements as FH kind of touched on?

 

2) If I continue to take the protein drink every day or so, even through the tingle/burn (hypersensitive nerves to serotonin currently), will the nerve synapse/shape still heal in the mean time or will I be making myself tingle/burn forever? (I know this is an irrational thought - can't help it though)


#198 fishinghat

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 09:30 AM

1) It depends on the whey protein powder and its composition. If you can let me know the brand name and product name I can find out.

 

2) It will not effect the healing of the synapses.


#199 DThiessen

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 11:03 AM

K so it is called Premier Protein, it is a protein drink I got from Cotsco here in Canada (Wholesale store). Per 325 ml carton there is 30g of protein... which is kind of a lot. Anyways the first few ingredients are as follows: Water, Milk Protein Concentrate, Calcium Caseinate, Cocoa Powder, Whey Protein Concentrate...

 

Now after experiencing this, I have looked this all up and appears that milk proteins/whey etc all contain LARGE amounts of Tryptophan. But I am not sure, like is this no different than taking a supplement of Tryptophan or is this a protein containing this amino acid work differently? So confused, my brain! Also, one site I was reading looked like 1g of Whey Protein equalled something outrageous like 47mg of Tryptophan and in this drink there is like a total of 30g of protein so that would be a LOT! 


#200 fishinghat

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 12:00 PM

With the cocoa powder I assume it is the Caffe Latte flavor?


#201 DThiessen

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 12:11 PM

Nope, it says flavor just Chocolate


#202 fishinghat

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 12:23 PM

Got it.


#203 fishinghat

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 12:57 PM

This would equate to 1.3% tryptophan in Skim milk protein

Nutrition and Amino Acid Profile
Nutrition Facts For Skim Milk Protein (per 30g)
Calories/Nutrient Amount
Calories 110 kcal
Carbohydrate 0 g
Fat 0 g
Protein 26.0 g
Essential Amino Acids Amount
Histidine 0.75 g
Isoleucine 1.33 g
Leucine 2.36 g
Lysine 1.94 g
Methionine 0.70 g
Phenylalanine 1.26 g
Threonine 1.07 g
Tryptophan 0.33 g
Valine 1.73 g
Non-Essential Amino Acids Amount
Alanine 0.72 g
Arginine 0.89 g
Aspartic acid 1.70 g
Cysteine 0.09 g
Glutamic acid 5.20 g
Glycine 0.44 g
Proline 2.45 g
Serine 1.47 g
Tyrosine 1.35 g
Protein Quality
According to protein quality scores, skim milk protein has good bioavailability.
However, it doesn’t quite match up to other dairy protein powders such as whey and milk protein (13);
⦁ Total protein per serve: 26.0 grams
⦁ DIAAS: 1.05 (high quality)
⦁ PDCAAS: 1.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is 2% tryptophan in Whey protein concentrate.
Nutrition and Amino Acid Profile
Nutrition Facts For Whey Protein Concentrate (per 30g)
Calories/Nutrient Amount
Calories 120 kcal
Carbohydrate 3.76 g
Fat 0.92 g
Protein 22.8 g
Essential Amino Acids Amount
Histidine 0.45 g
Isoleucine 1.13 g
Leucine 2.17 g
Lysine 1.96 g
Methionine 0.43 g
Phenylalanine 0.75 g
Threonine 1.15 g
Tryptophan 0.47 g
Valine 1.13 g
Non-Essential Amino Acids Amount
Alanine 0.99 g
Arginine 0.64 g
Aspartic acid 2.23 g
Cysteine 0.41 g
Glutamic acid 4.07 g
Glycine 0.41 g
Proline 1.36 g
Serine 1.68 g
Tyrosine 0.58 g
Protein Quality
Whey protein concentrate is a high-quality protein powder, and it contains somewhere in the region of 75-85% protein by weight.
Whey concentrate contains all the essential amino acids in sufficient amounts, and it is also highly bioavailable.
Here are the protein quality values;
⦁ Total protein per serve: 22.8 grams
⦁ DIAAS: 1.07 (high quality)
⦁ PDCAAS: 1.0
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So out of 30 grams you are running 2% tryptophan or less.
That would give a tryptophan of around <0.6 grams or 600 mg.  I also wonder if the caffiene in the drink is helping with the headaches. Drs often recommend caffinated drinks for people who suffer from chronic migraines.
Normal recommended dose for a tryptophan supplement - General Relaxation and Anxiety Reduction: 500-1000mg daily
About normal.


#204 DThiessen

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 06:22 PM

Oh wow - well to say I am appreciative of this information is an understatement!! What a wealth of information here that is truly going to help me. Wow. Thank you. K so that makes sense why whenever I drink these I haven no head pain and feel amazing (besides the burning tingling which SUCKS), because I am consuming about 600mg of Tryptophan!

 

K so this is awesome, but here are my questions now haha...

 

1) So if I am consuming this amount of Tryptophan... is this the same thing as taking a supplement in the sense that a) it can cause withdrawal when stopped B) it carries the same EMS risk as apparently Tryptophan supplements do (whether or not this is legit - was doing some research, mixed reviews) and c) my body won''t get rid of the excess (as it apparently would if I ate the same amount of Tryptophan but in a meat such as chicken)

 

2) Is the same as eating something high in tryptophan because it is a dietary protein or is in in fact more like a supplement being it is a processed drink.... this is what stumps me. Like, would I be better off trying to eat the same amount let's say 600mg of Tryptophan in chicken once a day than I am drinking this protein drink? As the chicken my body would use what it needs and get rid of the rest... 


#205 fishinghat

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 06:34 PM

1) To be honest I don't know. The tryptophan in meat is part of a protein molecule as it is in the drink as well so I would assume your body would limit the amount absorbed. Just a guess. I would doubt if there would be an actual withdrawal but there might be a return of the symptoms you had before the drink.

 

2) Tryptophan is not a protein it is an amino acid. Amino acids connect with each other to form long chain molecules called proteins. Eating chicken or drinking a protein drink supplies the whole protein and therefore it must be digested before releasing the tryptophan into the digestive tract for absorption. A supplement however is the actual amino acid. It is not bound in a protein and therefore us fully available for absorption as soon as the tablet/capsule dissolves.


#206 DThiessen

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 07:41 PM

Oh okay this makes sense, yep!

 

So I am not going to be worried about Tryptophan side effects per se, as I am consuming it in the protein. The supplements kind of scare me for some reason even though the research is so scattered on them --  I would rather lean on the safe side on this one. The EMS caution, as with 5-HTP, freaks me RIGHT OUT.

 

Well all I can do on this one I think is try even half a drink for now (which would supply me in the end with approx 300mg of Tryptophan in the digestive system) and see how that goes. See if I can't find a happy medium between the reduction in head pain as well as not "overdosing" my body with Serotonin to ignite the skin sensations. Honestly if it weren't for the hyper excitable nerves right now I would just drink a full shake a day and be done with the head pains right now! Why did I have to get this awful withdrawal symptom! It is like a rock and a hard place situation, similar to the L-Theanine where it completely took away the head pain but make my skin tingle and burn. Ugh. If I can just power through the awful paraesthesia's until the Synapses heal and in the mean time have no head pain with these drinks, I think I would be pretty solid until everything settles down (this has been a slow journey for me, so I am expecting more months of this crap). For me, my mind I feel has healed before my body. Strange. 

 

What impresses me about Whey Protein, however, is it's Serotonin potency as WELL as cortisol lowering effects. Very intrigued by this all and from what I am experiencing with it, know it works. 


#207 Mxpro32

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 09:44 PM

So whey protein is worth trying?

#208 DThiessen

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Posted 28 February 2020 - 10:18 PM

Mxpro it is definitely worth a try and pretty much is so safe and easy worth a shot for sure

#209 fishinghat

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 08:29 AM

Good plan DT

 

A caution, there are dozens of other amino acids in these protein supplements. Some, like L-tyrosine for example, can make withdrawal worse OR better. Nothing is simple. Just start low and work up slowly. Much safer.


#210 DThiessen

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Posted 29 February 2020 - 11:37 AM

Ooo... that would explain why I vibrate a little bit when taking it, L-Tyrosine and dopamine/adrenaline increase. Got ya. 

 

Then yes low and slow -- is always best. 

 

This week I plan to stop the drink and try pure lean protein (poultry) and see if I can not achieve the same / similar results. I will report on this by the end of the coming week. 





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