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Learning The Hard Way


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#1 Iknowthiswillgetbetter

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 09:02 AM

Hello,

 

I was quite proud of myself for tapering from 60mg to 30mg over the last 8 months, but have been very sick for the last month with what I thought was fighting the flu when a family member asked me if it could be withdrawal. I didn't think so at first, but after finding this site and reading a number of accounts and the symptoms, I realize he was right. 

 

I have been on this medication for over 5 years for Fibromyalgia, first at 30mg and then upped to 60mg and in the beginning it really seemed to help my pain. It definitely prevented my usual seasonal depression and for that I'm grateful, however, I'm focused on more natural treatments these days and don't wish to be a pharmaceutical "customer" any longer. I really wonder if the medications' longer term side effects aren't more dangerous than the original illness it was intended to treat. But back then, I was still running in the hamster wheel, constantly pushing myself to compete in a high stress IT world and I needed something to control the pain so I could work long days and travel.  Until it all came crashing down and I couldn't work at all anymore and ended up housebound for 6 months, very sick for 2 years and still live mostly in my recliner, even as I write this.  But hard to know if that was Cymbalta or the natural progression of the illness when I got exposed to nasty illnesses on planes and my immune system was shot from the stress of it all.  Now my DX includes ME/CFS in addition to Oestoarthritis in several joints, although one of them has been replaced.  And now my stress comes from trying to remember appointments, filling out forms when I can't remember what happened, and dealing with disability people. 

 

So I'm learning the hard way that I've wasted too much of my life on being "successful" and not enough focused on my health and well-being and that I ignored the warning signs that I was getting very sick until I could not fake being well for any length of time. And now I just don't care anymore, and measure my days on whether or not I did something nice for someone else, talked to a friend, hugged my family and was able to take care of myself.  I still try to do everything I can to feel better, but I no longer believe there's a magic pill that can help me.  

 

When I decided I was ready to start dropping from 30mg and went to every other day dosing, it really hit the fan. I now understand why. I thought it built up in your system like Prozac and so changes wouldn't be noticed for 3-4 weeks, but reading here about the half-life has shown me that I was doing it wrong and experiencing extreme fatigue, inability to concentrate, intense itching, nausea, dizziness, swollen glands (although that could be the ME/CFS kicking up?) So I will go back to taking it daily for now again, and then try again with the counting pellet method.  

 

Thank you for providing this valuable site!

 

M


#2 invalidusername

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 11:01 AM

So if I am reading you right, you are back taking 30mg every day? And this has been how long since the last taper attempt? How far and how long did that last taper get? This will give us some idea of how long it will take to stabalise back on the 30mg dose which is what you need for now before thinking about anything else. One step at a time. A taper is much better when approached from a position of confidence, even when the symptoms may be the same.

 

"I really wonder if the medications' longer term side effects aren't more dangerous than the original illness it was intended to treat."

If I have a quid/dollar for every time this has been mentioned on the site! Unfortunately there can be exactly those problems which lead you to this very thought. As you have already seen the harsh reality is that a simple taper turns into a nightmare, but we are here to make this as tolerable for you as possible.

 

"I still try to do everything I can to feel better, but I no longer believe there's a magic pill that can help me."

Absolutely right - no magic pill, otherwise we would all be laughing. You have mentioned the natural side of things as the path of your choice - which I am going to applaud as this is where I have also gone to myself as of 6 months ago. I am still on a dose of Celexa, but I am not taking any other medication regularly and supporting my health with natural-based aids. Can you tell us what you are using, and your reasons for using them?

 

Again this will let us a lot about where you are and how we might help. Remember than supplements can also be every bit a problem as medicine if not taken or observed correctly.

 

IUN


#3 Iknowthiswillgetbetter

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Posted 05 January 2020 - 04:54 PM

Hello,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to respond to my post! Yes, I'm back on 30mg every day now. I was doing every other day for about 2 weeks, and I think I was having symptoms as soon as I missed a dose but passed it off as fighting the flu, but I kept seeming to get worse instead of better even with all of my usual virus fighting treatments (Elderberry, Echinacea, Vit C). Plus I was so sick with the nausea that I stopped taking my usual supplements as well which normally consist of Olive leaf, Oregano oil (immune), L-Acetyl-Cysteine, Milk Thistle, Glutathione (Liver), B Vitamins, Magnesium, CBD Oil (nerve pain), Melatonin, Progesterone cream, and more CBD oil (sleep support), Neuro-Peak which has Vitamin B-12, Bacopa Monnieri, Phosphatidylserine, Ginkgo Biloba, Rhodiola Rosea Extract, DMAE (brain), Ubiquinol (energy), Quercitin, Nettle (allergy), several probiotics and Glutamine and anti-yeast supplement (gut health), various Bach remedies (mood), topical essential oils (pain, immune support), and epsom salt/baking soda detox baths. I also recently bought a PEMF mat and am experimenting with different frequencies for pain management and to help me relax and sleep better. I'm still learning so I don't have any great insights there. I was also taking sleep medications and Clonazapam but have mostly eliminated these. I still need to take my natural thyroid though. I also have Tramodol but try not to take unless absolutely nothing else can touch the pain. Hopefully that's not too much information.  

 

M


#4 invalidusername

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Posted 06 January 2020 - 07:00 PM

Woh... I think Hat needs to have a look at that. He is more clued up on vitamins and so forth than myself.

 

If you were doing the every other day taper, there is little that will get in the way. It is just the worst way to approach it. It doesn't surprise me than nothing on that list helped. In theory it shouldn't take long to recover from 2 weeks of doing that, but you will need to be patient. 

 

Which other sleep meds where you taking? Some can also have a nasty fallout - particularly z-drugs...


#5 fishinghat

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 09:36 AM

I can't even begin to list how many of these have toxic effects on the body let alone interactions with each other. A good solid diet would eliminate the need for most of these. About 5 minutes ago I was reading about 5 minutes ago about a lady taking the recommended dose of Glutathione and it destroyed her liver. She had to have an emergency liver transplant. You must remember that supplements, even natural supplements, are chemicals that effect the body. Just because it is natural does bot mean it is safe. Arsenic, nightshade, acetylcholine, rattlesnake poison, sun's radiation, uv light and much more are all natural but that doesn't mean it is good for you or that if a little is good a lot is better.

The decision to take these is up to you and we will do anything we can to help you during your withdrawal battle but I just have to be honest about things. Sorry if I offended you in any way.

#6 Iknowthiswillgetbetter

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 12:11 PM

Thank you both for your comments. I'm certainly not offended. I have a chiropractor who energy tests me for supplements to determine what's needed and proper dosage, so hopefully I'm only taking what my liver can actually handle and breakdown properly.  I'm sure that people will not understand this method or her intuitive ability, but I do trust her very much.  And she never wanted me to take medications like Cymbalta, but my GP recommended it and I was desperate for relief as I'm sure many of you understand.  I was on Ambien after a hip replacement for a little over a year but no longer take it. I had been taking Lorazapam for about 5 years to help with sleep, but eventually weaned myself off of this also when I thought it might be the cause of memory issues. Then my ME/CFS and Fibro specialist suggested it would be better for me to take 1/2 gram of Clonazapam to help with restless legs and sleep. I do take it sometimes when nothing else helps me get to sleep.  

 

So for the pellet method of weaning, are there some guidelines here I can follow? Things to watch out for? 

 

Are any of you familiar with Xyrem?  Other than being hard to get, other thoughts, experiences and comments?  

 

Thanks, 

M


#7 fishinghat

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 12:37 PM

Sodium oxybate (Xyrem) is a prescription medication used to treat two symptoms of narcolepsy: sudden muscle weakness and excessive daytime sleepiness

 

Sodium oxybate was approved for use by the FDA to treat symptoms of narcolepsy in 2002 with a strict risk evaluation and mitigation strategy (REMS) program mandated by the FDA. The US label for sodium oxybate also has a black box warning because it is a central nervous system depressant and may cause respiratory depression, seizures, coma, or death, especially if used in combination with other CNS depressants, such as alcohol and its use may cause dependence. In Canada and the European Union (EU) it was classified as a Schedule III and a Schedule IV controlled substance, respectively.

 

Between 1% and 10% of people experience nasal congestion, runny nose, or sore throat, loss of appetite, distorted sense of taste, cataplexy, weakness, nervousness or anxiety, depressed mood, nightmares or abnormal dreams, sleep paralysis, sleepwalking, or other sleep disturbances including insomnia, sleepiness or sedation, falls, vertigo, tremor, balance disorder, cognitive issues including disturbance in attention, confusion or disorientation, numbed sense of touch, tingling, blurred vision, heart palpitations, high blood pressure, shortness of breath, snoring, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach pain, excessive sweating, rashes, joint pain, muscle pain, back pain, muscle spasms, bedwetting, urinary incontinence, and swelling of the limbs.

 

Sodium oxybate is the sodium salt of γ-hydroxybutyric acid (GHB).

 

In the US, the cost (as of Q3 2015) of Xyrem is $5,468.09 per 180 mL bottle (500 mg/mL)(a 10 to 15-day supply). As of 2017 the cost of sodium oxybate in the UK was £540.00 to £1,080.00 for a thirty day supply, which at typical doses is £6,500 to £13,100 per year.\l "

https://dailymed.nlm...ef-411f0aa4f3ca
FDA drug insert

 

5.5 Depression and Suicidality
In adult clinical trials in patients with narcolepsy (n=781), there were two suicides and two attempted suicides in patients treated with Xyrem, including three patients with a previous history of depressive psychiatric disorder. Of the two suicides, one patient used Xyrem in conjunction with other drugs. Xyrem was not involved in the second suicide. Adverse reactions of depression were reported by 7% of 781 patients treated with Xyrem, with four patients (<1%) discontinuing because of depression. In most cases, no change in Xyrem treatment was required.

 

In a controlled adult trial, with patients randomized to fixed doses of 3 g, 6 g, or 9 g per night Xyrem or placebo, there was a single event of depression at the 3 g per night dose. In another adult controlled trial, with patients titrated from an initial 4.5 g per night starting dose, the incidences of depression were 1 (1.7%), 1 (1.5%), 2 (3.2%), and 2 (3.6%) for the placebo, 4.5 g, 6 g, and 9 g per night doses, respectively.

 

5.6 Other Behavioral or Psychiatric Adverse Reactions
During adult clinical trials in patients with narcolepsy, 3% of 781 patients treated with Xyrem experienced confusion, with incidence generally increasing with dose.

 

Less than 1% of patients discontinued the drug because of confusion. Confusion was reported at all recommended doses from 6 g to 9 g per night. In a controlled trial in adults where patients were randomized to fixed total daily doses of 3 g, 6 g, or 9 g per night or placebo, a dose-response relationship for confusion was demonstrated, with 17% of patients at 9 g per night experiencing confusion. In all cases in that controlled trial, the confusion resolved soon after termination of treatment. In Trial 3 where sodium oxybate was titrated from an initial 4.5 g per night dose, there was a single event of confusion in one patient at the 9 g per night dose. In the majority of cases in all adult clinical trials in patients with narcolepsy, confusion resolved either soon after termination of dosing or with continued treatment.

 

Anxiety occurred in 5.8% of the 874 patients receiving Xyrem in adult clinical trials in another population.

 

Other neuropsychiatric reactions reported in adult clinical trials in patients with narcolepsy and the post-marketing setting included hallucinations, paranoia, psychosis, aggression, and agitation.

 

In the pediatric clinical trial in patients with narcolepsy, neuropsychiatric reactions, including acute psychosis, confusion, and anxiety, were reported while taking Xyrem.

 

The emergence or increase in the occurrence of behavioral or psychiatric events in adult and pediatric patients taking Xyrem should be carefully monitored.

 

5.7 Parasomnias
Sleepwalking, defined as confused behavior occurring at night and at times associated with wandering, was reported in 6% of 781 patients with narcolepsy treated with Xyrem in adult controlled and long-term open-label studies, with <1% of patients discontinuing due to sleepwalking. Rates of sleepwalking were similar for patients taking placebo and patients taking Xyrem in controlled trials. It is unclear if some or all of the reported sleepwalking episodes correspond to true somnambulism, which is a parasomnia occurring during non-REM sleep, or to any other specific medical disorder. Five instances of significant injury or potential injury were associated with sleepwalking during a clinical trial of Xyrem in patients with narcolepsy.

 

Parasomnias, including sleepwalking, also have been reported in the pediatric clinical trial and in postmarketing experience with Xyrem. Therefore, episodes of sleepwalking should be fully evaluated and appropriate interventions considered.

 

5.3 Xyrem REMS Program
Xyrem is available only through a restricted distribution program called the Xyrem REMS Program because of the risks of central nervous system depression and abuse and misuse.
Notable requirements of the Xyrem REMS Program include the following:

Healthcare Providers who prescribe Xyrem are specially certified

Xyrem will be dispensed only by the central pharmacy that is specially certified

Xyrem will be dispensed and shipped only to patients who are enrolled in the Xyrem REMS Program with documentation of safe use
Further information is available at www.XYREMREMS.com or 1-866-XYREM88® (1-866-997-3688).

 

9.3 Dependence
There have been case reports of withdrawal, ranging from mild to severe, following discontinuation of illicit use of GHB at frequent repeated doses (18 g to 250 g per day) in excess of the recommended dosage range. Signs and symptoms of GHB withdrawal following abrupt discontinuation included insomnia, restlessness, anxiety, psychosis, lethargy, nausea, tremor, sweating, muscle cramps, tachycardia, headache, dizziness, rebound fatigue and sleepiness, confusion, and, particularly in the case of severe withdrawal, visual hallucinations, agitation, and delirium. These symptoms generally abated in 3 to 14 days. In cases of severe withdrawal, hospitalization may be required. The discontinuation effects of Xyrem have not been systematically evaluated in controlled clinical trials. In the clinical trial experience with Xyrem in ith frenarcolepsy/cataplexy patients at recommended doses, two patients reported anxiety and one reported insomnia following abrupt discontinuation at the termination of the clinical trial; in the two patients with anxiety, the frequency of cataplexy had increased markedly at the same time.

Note - This drug has been used as a date rape drug with frequent cases of respiratory failure and death.


#8 fishinghat

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 12:40 PM

From our ebook.

OPTIONS

There are three ways to do it. Cold Turkey, swapping meds (Cross taper) and bead counting.


I don’t recommend cold turkey unless there is no choice. The cold turkey withdrawal can be quite severe and usually lasts longer. The FDA and the manufacturers have issued warnings against going cold turkey. It can cause seizures, suicidal thoughts, fear, panic and much more. With swapping meds you lower your dose of Cymbalta over a 4 or 5 week level to zero and at the same time go on a different ssri with a lot less severe withdrawal, say Zoloft, Lexapro or Prozac. Once you make the switch you slowly come off the new ssri. Very slowly. The third choice, bead counting, is where you open the Cymbalta capsule each day and remove a few beads, usually 2 or 3 (1%). So the first day you remove 3 beads, the next day 6 beads, the next 9 beads etc. This provides for a slow steady withdrawal. If symptoms get to bad you just hold at that dosage for a while until you stabilize. Then start dropping again. Be aware that for most the last few beads give the worse withdrawal. Be prepared to slow down when you get to the very end. Now this is just an example. Some can only remove 1 bead a day and others 7 or 8 beads a day. You will have to play with it a little bit to find what works for you. This doesn't mean you won't have withdrawal but it will be lighter and you will have some control over it.

#9 invalidusername

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 12:55 PM

I'm having a quick read on nutritional energy testing and it is a fairly new approach, and whilst I will never speak ill of something I do not know about, I am trying to see how the tests infiltrate the information that a routine blood test would give - unless you have these done as well. The way that muscles behave is not a complete indication of how the blood-work balances out, so I am very interested in the procedural aspects behind this - especially as I can't stand having blood taken!!


#10 Iknowthiswillgetbetter

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 01:12 PM

Thank you for all of the information and support.  There are studies going on for Fibromyalgia patients with Xyrem as there is some consensus that Fibromyalgia and sleep disorders are highly related, and my sleep study showed no deep sleep and a very high rate of hourly wakenings so the doctor asked me to think about looking into a trial.

 

I think I will try the taper method off of Cymbalta with counting beads and do it very slowly. I am concerned that I might get hit hard with depression, so I will watch out for that. It does tend to run in our family and I usually have trouble when the days are short and sunlight is hard to find. I took Zoloft a long time ago and will consider the option to cross taper if needed. I actually tried just now to pull a Cymbalta capsule apart and the first one would only open if I tore it. The second one opened easier, so I think I will need to buy the enteric coated capsules in case I need to transfer them into an unbroken one so that I don't waste them all. I'm hoping my last refill will be my LAST REFILL.  

 

M

 

Thanks again,

M


#11 fishinghat

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 01:38 PM

Good start M. Be aware that weaning off of Cymbalta can take a year or more. It can (but not always) have a big bite. Metabolic energy testing is in its infancy but has a lot of sound science behind it. It, like blood testing, is a tool not the solution to everything. I would sincerely hope you are aldo getting a CMP dome each year as well as a cbc. This would make a good combination.


#12 Iknowthiswillgetbetter

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 10:09 AM

I sincerely appreciate the advice and support. I will continue to work on slowly weaning even if it takes more than a year to do so. And I will work closely with my doctor on any needed blood work in addition to other forms of testing. 

 

All the best,

M


#13 Iknowthiswillgetbetter

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 04:04 PM

Hi folks,

 

I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask a question, but please direct me if not.  

 

So I'm back on 30mg each day after thinking I could wean myself with every other day dosing.  Yesterday I felt half-way decent which was a huge improvement after a rough month but today I have been sick as a dog all day. Woke up after poor sleep with a headache, like a bad hangover but without any alcohol.  I drank several glasses of water, had some hot tea, eventually took aleve and have been alternating ice packs on my forehead and back of my neck all day. After eating some granola, nausea kicked in and also hasn't stopped. I've been eating gin-gins.  Any suggestions for what else to try? 

 

Thanks,

M


#14 invalidusername

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 06:01 PM

Great news that you have seen a positive window.

 

The best thing I have used for nausea is brewing my own ginger tea and it is absorbed well. I buy stem ginger directly from the grocery store and using a cheese grater and put fresh shavings into a tea pot - add boiling water - leave to steep for a few minutes - then pour out, add honey to taste and works wonders.


#15 fishinghat

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 06:06 PM

It takes blood levels of Cymbalta about 3 days to stabilize so hang on. It will settle down soon.

#16 invalidusername

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Posted 09 January 2020 - 06:38 PM

...yes, should have mentioned that Hat! Thank you.

 

There will probably still be the odd up and down over the next few days even after it has settled, but they get less and less and then stability will ensue.

 

Keep going - we're always here for you!





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