77 replies to this topic

[fishinghat]

Well IUN it did it again. I had a full list prepared yesterday and had to start posting it in small sections because it wouldn't take a larger post. Then around 4 PM the site went down and that was that. I will finish posting the list in a little bit. 

[fishinghat]

Sorry Coleen. It simply will not let me post anything over a sentence or two. I will keep trying though.

[fishinghat]

OK, so I was able to post some info on another person's thread so I will try again.

[fishinghat]

I see the site is back up so will try to post again.

[fishinghat]

Omega 3

Dose - Omega 3 is recommended at 2000 mg/day EPA and DHA for anxiety, give or take a couple hundred depending on what research you read. It has been shown that only the EPA and DHA components effect anxiety. Any other omega 3 fatty acids don't do anything for anxiety. Life Extensions, Mega EPA/DHA, is distilled (molecularly purified) so you don't get any impurities with your product plus it contains no mercury. Some even provide a certificate of analysis if requested. They also have ones that are enteric coated now that will not irritate the digestive track and has no fish burbs to them. 

 

http://www.cymbaltaw...elps#entry67706

This thread contains a detailed discussion on use of Omega 3.

 

Also this thread....

http://www.cymbaltaw...elps#entry68036

[fishinghat]

Page 2 (Cont.)

 

Fishinghat - Omega 3 fish oils can be very high in mercury depending on the type of fish used. Some have tested at over 300 ppm mercury. There are brands out there that are mercury free or low mercury guaranteed. Something to think about. If you have thyroid issues they usually contain high iodine concentrations also. One member had an episode of high iodine toxicity I couldn't find a iodine free product. If your thyroid is fine then this should not be an issue.

 

FH - Cod liver oil you buy in the store may be high in mercury and pesticides. The liver is the pollutant filter for the body. Cod livers are from the top of the food chain and pollutant levels are usually significant. Be sure to get one that is purified and verified mercury free. But I don't believe there is one verified pesticide free. Great care must be used in selecting one. It also contains fairly significant levels of vitamin A and D and toxic doses are known to occur. Routine blood analysis for Vit A and D should be done every 6 months if using Cod Liver Oil or any Fish oil.

[fishinghat]

Page 2 (Cont.)

Heavy metal poisoning  by the body's accumulation of traces of heavy metals, in particular mercury, lead, nickel, arsenic and cadmium is a possible risk from consuming fish oil supplements. Also, other contaminants (PCBs, Furans, dioxins, and PBDEs) might be found, especially in less-refined fish oil supplements. 

 

Warning

Arrhythmias

Omega 3

More than 3 Grams of omega 3 per day can worsen cardiac arrhythmias.

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[fishinghat]

Page 3

Melatonin

FH - a research article where it was shown that taking no more than 0.7 mg of liquid melatonin under the tongue (sublingual) helps with anxiety. Place it under the tongue until dissolved and gone. In case you are not familiar with melatonin it is the chemical your body produces in the evening to make you sleepy and ready for bed. I suggest you start with around 0.1 mg and work up from there. Too much will relax you but it might also make you sleepy.

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[fishinghat]

Page 4

L-theanine 

L-theanine is an amino acid precursor to glutamate (involved in the synthesis of GABA) and glutamine. It can cross the blood brain barrier. It is only produced by plants and fungi and a component in some teas. It inhibits glutamine transporters and glutamate transporters, and thus blocks the reuptake of glutamine and glutamate. Theanine increases serotonin, dopamine, GABA, and glycine levels in various areas of the brain. Caution – Most plants that contain L-theanine also contain caffeine and it can be a significant contaminant in L-theanine supplements. It is synthesized from glutamate using the enzyme glutamate decarboxylase and pyridoxal phosphate (which is the active form of vitamin B6) as a cofactor. This process converts glutamate, the principal excitatory neurotransmitter, into the principal inhibitory neurotransmitter (GABA).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theanine

[fishinghat]

Page 4 (Cont.)

Member's comments
(puritan's pride) 200 mg capsules 2- 3/ day. I have been taking this prior to cymbalta detox. It helped me reduce my dosage of clonazepam. Within 20-30 mins I feel more calm. I do believe it is helping keep the anxiety in check.
Tinabee - For now I have started taking fish oil and a supplement called Theanine Serene that is supposed to help with anxiety. I know it sounds silly since I've only taken the anxiety supplement for a couple days but I really feel like it has helped.
200mg L-Theanine in the morning with a full glass of water on an empty stomach, you can take again in late afternoon 100 to 200 mg if needed (make sure it is suntheanine - it helps with headaches and pain as any painkiller I had just did not cut it)
Member's comments were generally favorable.

[fishinghat]

Page 4 (cont.)

http://www.cymbaltaw...page-2?hl=helps

Page 1 and 2, detailed information on L theanine and its usage.

Research

The research shows that all green tea leaves contain both L-theanine and D- theanine BUT only the special processing used by the manufacturer produces pure L-Theanine and is the choice of many of the research biologists.

 

 

Five of the six products contained significant amounts of D-theanine. Only one product, SunTheanine, appeared to contain only the L-theanine enantiomer. D-theanine is not used by the human body.  Suntheanine is the pure ingredient and that is what you want. 

 

Key Points

Theanine increases serotonin, dopamine, GABA, and glycine levels in various areas of the brain. 

Scientific Information

A National Standard monograph that reviews current research on theanine reports that it is likely safe in doses of 200–250 mg up to a maximum daily dose of 1,200 mg. Theanine is used to help with anxiety, blood pressure control, mood, and cognition. 

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[fishinghat]

Page 5

Ashwagandha

(Withania somnifera )

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25405876

All five studies concluded that WS intervention resulted in greater score improvements (significantly in most cases) than placebo in outcomes on anxiety or stress scales.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26068424

Our results provide evidence indicating that key constituents in WS may have an important role in the development of pharmacological treatments for neurological disorders associated with GABAergic signaling dysfunction such as general anxiety disorders, sleep disturbances, muscle spasms, and seizures.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/19718255

300 mg twice a day.

Final BAI scores (anxiety test) decreased by 56.5% in the Ashwagandha group. Significant differences between groups were also observed in mental health, concentration, fatigue, social functioning, vitality, and overall quality of life with the Ashwagandha group exhibiting greater clinical benefit. No serious adverse reactions were observed in either group.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24497737

250 mg 2x/day

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/24330893

500 mg/day for bipolar, effective.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/23439798

Each capsule contained 300 mg of high-concentration full-spectrum extract from the root of the Ashwagandha plant. Each person took 2 capsules a day. The treatment group that was given the high-concentration full-spectrum Ashwagandha root extract exhibited a significant reduction in scores on all the stress-assessment scales on Day 60, relative to the placebo group. The serum cortisol levels were substantially reduced in the Ashwagandha group, relative to the placebo group. No serious adverse events were reported.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22546655

W. somnifera extract is effective in treating obsessive compulsive disorder

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18697607

The results suggest the protective effect of WS in the management of ethanol (alcohol)withdrawal reactions.

[fishinghat]

Page 5 (Cont.)

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/17585686

Preliminary results suggest that Withania root extract can be used in the management sleep loss and associated oxidative stress.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19363747

Effective for anxiety

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11194174

WSG also exhibited an antidepressant effect, comparable with that induced by imipramine in the 'behavioural despair' and 'learned helplessness' tests. The investigations support the use of WS as a mood stabilizer in clinical conditions of anxiety and depression

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3252722/

It has a Cognition Promoting Effect and was useful in children with memory deficit and in old age people loss of memory. It was also found useful in neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's, Huntington's and Alzeimer's diseases. It has GABA mimetic effect and was shown to promote formation of dendrites. It has anxiolytic effect and improves energy levels and mitochondrial health. It is an anti-inflammatory and anti-arthritic agent and was found useful in clinical cases of Rheumatoid and Osteoarthritis.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3487234/

1,250 mg/day × 10 days

All volunteers tolerated WS without any adverse event.

Safety and side effects

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2958355/

This product is comparative to lorazepam in its ability to control anxiety. That is impressive.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC2958355/

250 mg twice a day.

At 6 weeks, significantly more patients met a priori response criteria in the drug group (88.2%) as compared with the placebo group (50%). The drug was well-tolerated and did not occasion more adverse effects than did placebo. It is concluded that this ethanolic extract of Withania somnifera has useful anxiolytic potential and merits further investigation.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/28004351

This study provides scientific validation to the anxiolytic, anti-inflammatory and anti-apoptotic properties of ASH-WEX, which may serve as an effective dietary supplement for management of SD induced stress and associated functional impairments.

 

Members Comments

One member reported taking it during withdrawal and said it was very beneficial.

Brz - ashwagandha update:

had to stop - bummer.

definitely allergic. just like sk8ermama. i couldn't figure out why my allergies hadn't gone away even after the pollen count dropped way down. stopped the ashwagandha and my congestion and headaches subsided. not to mention i had a very tight chest feeling. very uncomfortable. my side effects are not uncommon from what i've learned. i may try again way down the road but now that i'm battling reflux, i don't want to complicate things. i've heard rhodiola is a similar adaptogen, but don't want to introduce anything new into my system right now.

 

Many other members have had good success with it but your body does build up tolerance to it so it must be used for short periods of time. 

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[fishinghat]

Page 6

Deep breathing, sighs, yawns....

These activities cause an increase in the release of dopamine, endorphins and serotonin. This fact has been used by psychologists for decades to help control anxiety, depression and sleep. By causing yourself to yawn several time over a 10 or 15 minute period it will release enough of these neurotransmitters to help relax and induce sleep. Sighs work much in the same fashion but to a lesser degree, Breathing exercises are the most effective. A good psychologist should be used to teach the most effective techniques.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/9551709

Member comments and tips -

deep breathes, breath(ing) - 22 comments all positive

Raven - Breathe it deep calming breaths and hold them for about 5 seconds before slowly letting them out.

Gail - you need to breathe, yes breathe in and out slowly.

FH - Deep breathing. Close your eyes—and try taking deep, slow breaths— making each breath even deeper than the last. If you have a psychologist who could teach you relaxation techniques, controlled breathing and heart rate, etc. These techniques really do work.

Raven - Just do you best to stay calm and use breathing techniques. My husband and FH have given me great tips on breathing when anxiety strikes. FH because he is a veteran and my husband because he has asthma.

Keys to breathing:

** Take slow deep breaths (breath in deeply and slowly)

** Hold for at least 15 secs if you can

** Exhale slowly

***repeat as needed*

 

FN - What helped me the most with this was yoga ...the breathing exercises ... once learned, they can be done anywhere, anytime .... the release of the built up anxiety in my body was tremendous ...

Janson - . i've learned a few breathing exercises via yoga and that helps immensely to calm down those nerves that are about to snap. even without knowledge of specific breathing exercises, just take deep full breaths with hands on your stomach and see your tummy rise on the breath in and then fully breath out. so simple, so effective.

[fishinghat]

Page 6 (Cont.)

Note - There must have been well over 100 members that had posts similar to the one below. Shortness of breath, heart pounding, skip beats, tightness in the chest or chest pain. These are classic anxiety symptoms and are the result of elevated adrenalin e levels. Adrenaline is a vasoconstrictor and bronchiole constrictor. These shallow rapid breaths allow CO2 to build in the lungs and worsens the symptoms. Alpha-agonists (eg. clonidine) and beta blockers (atenolol) work well t o block the effects of this excess adrenaline. Breathing exercises also help considerably in breaking this Cycle. As you can see below ZA got it really right.

Snap87 - Just scared with the shortness of breath and heart palpitations more than anything.

ZA - the 'out of breath' symptom is actually shallow breathing and I had that for about 2days it is very exhausting as it causes your oxygen saturation to drop. what worked for me 'was awareness -slow deep breathing -then a little aerobics. it helped to up my b/p and neutralize by blood gases.

[fishinghat]

Page 7

Conditioned Response -

One of the methods that can have a dramatic effect on anxiety is the development of a phrase in association with breathing exercises and relaxation techniques. This usually takes time to develop but is very effective. The process is begun by selecting a phrase...say the word "easy" for example. When you notice that you begin to get too anxious then lay down, close your eyes and begin your deep breathing exercises while also doing relaxation like 'progressive relaxation' all the time repeating the word 'easy' in your mind. With practice this becomes very effective and the need to lay down to achieve success is not necessary. You simply stop in place, close your eyes and say the word 'easy" to yourself while relaxing and breathing deeply. You then proceed on with your activities. This can be further used by your spouse to help you control your anxiety. If your spouse notices you becoming anxious they can simply develop a certain place she/he touches you gently as a signal that you need to stop, breath and relax. With practice this becomes automatic and can easily be done in public without drawing attention to your state of mind. The is a conditioned response so it MUST be practiced until it is a reflex action to be most helpful.

 

Three members report using this technique with excellent results.

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[fishinghat]

Page 8

Clonidine

Clonidine  (Catapres, Kapvay, Nexiclon, Clophelin) is a classic blood pressure medicine BUT it is very effective on anxiety. It is an alpha adrenergic antagonist which means it stimulates the alpha adrenaline synapses located in the frontal lobes of the brain. When these synapses are stimulated by the clonidine the brain thinks that it is due to adrenaline and it tells the adrenal gland to produce less adrenaline. It is a little slow to kick in, about an hour and a half. It has a 12 hour half life. Most drs prescribe 0.1 mg twice a day. One to be taken about an hour before bedtime and the other in the morning. Because it decreases adrenaline it has a strong calming effect which helps a person get to sleep and stay a sleep. It is not unusual for people to have a little drowsiness from clonidine until they get use to it (1 or 2 weeks). It does NOT work faster sublingual (under the tongue) like benzos.  These have no withdrawal but your blood pressure may spike for a couple weeks if you cold turkey. Due to the lowering of blood pressure and sleepiness it is common for the patient to start with ½ tablet at bedtime. Once the patient adjusts to the medicine they begin a ½ tablet in the morning. As sleepiness and blood pressure stabilize they are slowly worked up to the 2 tablets (0.1 mg each) a day. 

Begins working 60 to 90 minutes

Peak levels – 3 to 5  hrs

Half Life – 12 - 16 hrs

There are too many research articles on clonidine's anxiolytic properties to list here.

[fishinghat]

Page 8 (Cont.)

FH - I started clonidine but it was a relief to me NOT to be able to feel my heart pound through my chest. As long as your bp is OK you shouldn't have a problem. 

That is why the slow start up. This gives your heart a chance to adapt to the new med. I did the same slow start up and my bp stayed within normal range. Just keep monitoring your bp and you should be OK.

FN - clonidine worked wonders for me 

[fishinghat]

Page 9

Hydroxyzine, (Vistaril, Atarax) - is an H(1)R antagonist, is very effective against anxiety in most people but some get no help from it at all. It is not addictive nor does it have withdrawal but it also can lower blood pressure some but that usually goes away with time. This medicine should be started slowly to give your body a chance to adjust to the blood pressure effect. Normal dose is 25 mg four times a day but can go as high as 400mg/day.

Begins working in 30 minutes or less

Peak levels - 2  hrs

Half Life – 15 to 20 hrs

Do not take with cimetidine as it increases hydroxyzine levels in the blood.

 

https://www.mayoclin...se/drg-20311434

(Mayo Clinic)

For oral dosage forms (capsules or suspension): 

⦁ To help control anxiety and tension: 

⦁ Adults—50 to 100 milligrams (mg) 4 times a day. 

[fishinghat]

Page 10

Atenolol is a beta 1 adrenergic receptor antagonist, also known as a beta blocker. It does not pass  through the blood brain barrier which limits its side effects compared to other beta blockers. It has been linked to a higher risk of type 2 diabetes. It may cause drowsiness and lower blood pressure. Typical dosage around 25 mg four times/day. Dosage should be slowly increased.

Begins working in 30 minutes to an hour

Peak levels – 2 – 4 hrs

Half Life – 6 - 8 hrs

SF - So now I am on one. It is called Atilonol (Atenolol?) and calms down your heart rate too.

 

Some members have also reported good results with Propranolol, a different beta-blocker.

[fishinghat]

Page 11

Buspirone (Buspar) is a seratonin 5-HT1A  receptor partial agonist and a dopamine antagonist at the receptors. It functions as a weak anti-anxiety medication similar to diazepam in strength (a weak benzo). No withdrawal or tolerance issues. Dosage should be kept low if taking a ssri and/or snri or St. John's Wort as it may cause seratonin syndrome. DO NOT take with grapefruit or grapefruit juice. May lower blood pressure. Typical dosage is 10 to 20 mg three times per day.

Begins working 3 to 7 days after begin dosing

Peak levels - 1  hrs

Half Life – 2 - 4 hrs

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/22998742

Buspar (15mg) and Melatonin (3 mg) yielded the best anti-depressant effect of any combination concentration tested. (See Melatonin below)

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25156283

Buspar and melatonin in combination is anxiolytic.

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[fishinghat]

Page 12

Dos and Don'ts

 

DON'T ...

take PPIs, acid reducers or antacids with an antidepressant as it will effect absorption of the antidepressant.

 

take St. John's Wort, 5HTP, tryptophan, SAMe, Dextromethorphan (a cough syrup/cold medicine) with an antidepressant - Serotonin Syndrome.

 

Don't take Stimulants (Make anxiety worse)

Caffeine 

Over-the-counter cold preparations contain phenylpropylamine and pseudoephedrine*

Sleep deprivation

Marijuana*

Magnesium*

MSG

Alcohol

Stress

amphetamines

ecstasy

nicotine

Ginseng

L-Tyrosine 

B Vitamins*

aspartame

Coconut Oil 

Taurine 

DHEA 

Ginkgo 

Iodine 

Arginine

Sugar

Kava

* - Only some people have this reaction.

 

Things containing caffeine..

https://www.caffeine...ffeine-database

List of energy drinks with caffiene. (over 100)

 

take Depressants (Make depression worse)

Oxalic acid is a depressant found in members of the spinach family and cabbage, broccoli, brussels sprouts, chives and lamb's quarters are high in oxalates, as are sorrel and parsley. Rhubarb leaves contain about 0.5% oxalic acid. Oxalic acid can cause depression, lack of minerals, kidney stones, and more. Cooking does not affect oxalic acid. People with kidney disease, a history of kidney stones or suffer from depression should avoid these foods. 

 

other depressants:

Aspartame

Gluten

High Fat Dairy

Sugar 

alcohol

Trans fats

Sodium 

Caffeine

Pesticide residue on foods

GHB

exposure to organic solvents (paint, varnish, stains, cleaning solvents, paint thinner, etc).

 

Do mot take any calcium or magnesium products within 2 hours of a medication as it can effect absorption of the medication. 

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Do

take 500 mg of vitamin C per day or 300 mg of NAC - (N-acetyl cysteine) an antioxidant

learn Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or Mindfulness

sleep as much as possible

Keeping a Journal  - Don't trust your memory during withdrawal.

Stay hydrated

[fishinghat]

Yea, I finally got it!!  lol

[coleenjo]

fishinghat, you are a marvel. I can’t thank you enough for taking the time to help me go to exactly what I need. 566 pages in the ebook was a little daunting when you can’t look at screens for very long. Sleep has been a problem, since I waken around 4, but will stop resisting the urge to nap. You are a lifesaver and I don’t know how to begin to thank you.

[fishinghat]

Thank you for the kind words. We all work together here to help as much as possible. I am always glad to help out. We know how severe the suffering can be. 

[invalidusername]

Liquid melatonin might help you if you are waking in the middle of the night. 

 

My wife suffered from the same thing for a long time and this came to her rescue. We are in the UK so we had to ship from the States which was a pain, so hopefully you are that side of the pond and can get some easily enough.

 

Benadryl will make you drowsy for sure and help you get off to sleep, but melatonin would be the one if you wake and need to get more kip.

 

You can also get extended release melatonin, but many report really feeling the effects the next day of lethargy and groggy with spells of various head complaints, so I would stick with the liquid first up.

[coleenjo]

Thanks, IUN. I am on the “right side of the pond.”

[invalidusername]

Given the state of our health service here, I can safely say that yours is the "right" side of the pond

[coleenjo]

IUN and fishing hat - I don’t know if I can do this. The worst part is that I am isolating alone during the pandemic and, although friends and family are at the end of the phone, not all understand what I am going through. The days are so long and I am still unable to tolerate much stimulation: no streaming or TV, can’t read, can’t listen to music which can stir up so many emotions; exercise is limited due to my back, and so the days and suffering go on forever. I can do the breathing and a limited number of yoga stretches, avoiding back pain. I have no appetite and am forcing food. Evenings seem somewhat better - calmer - but maybe only because the day is almost over. Benadryl does help me get back to sleep ( just 12.5 mg) but I know I can’t use that every night. Being out in nature helps a bit but is not always possible. I have three more days at 2 beads before going down to 3; is my experience normal?

[invalidusername]

Hi Coleen...

 

Best thing to do is to reply to your existing topic, but we will be notified either way, but for now I have removed the duplicate so it doesn't confuse things.

 

So it has only been 4 days since we have kicked the new action into place so things are still going to be uncomfortable for a few more days yet. Patience is a very difficult thing here. 

 

The problem is that you still have too much serotonin going through your system and even whilst you are dropping, your brain is used to having that much going on, so it will initially try to compensate until it realises your new normal. 

 

Keep eating as not doing so will only mess up metabolism causing more stomach acid that will then potentially cause absorption issues with the meds. Good that the benadryl is helping. Do not worry for using that as you need it at the moment as this will be the height of your emotional problems until things settle in a few days. 

 

I suggest that we consider something to help you calm during the day that isn't going to mess with the other meds going through your system. Personally I would suggest suntheanine or KSM-66 Ashwagandha. Have you tried either of these before?