34 replies to this topic

[greenpurple]

Has anyone received neurofeedback while getting off of Cymbalta? What was your experience? Btw, I know many are slamming Cymbalta. Though I want to wean off now, I need to acknowledge with gratitude that this medication has saved my life more than once from severe depression.

[thismoment]

Hi greenpurple

Welcome!

Neurofeedback (using EEG, HEG or similar) would surely be helpful to many of us who are struggling to restore our lives following Cymbalta. The process, however, is esoteric and expensive. But I would love to see the results from trials, or even give it a try myself!

However, many patients for whom Duloxetine was working are forced onto generic versions of Cymbalta, or driven into the horror of Duloxetine discontinuation simply because they cannot afford the monthly cost of the medication. And the cost of long-term psychotherapy puts that beyond the reach of most also.

Cymbalta worked well for me too, but after a year on the drug, it began to subtly dismantle my faculties, function, and emotions. By the end of two years on Duloxetine I was virtually a zombie-- emotions flat-lined, unstable on my feet, ringing in my ears, totally sexually disfunctional, constant headache, disheveled, unsympathetic, uncompassionate-- a time bomb without hope. Two choices emerged from the inert biomass that I was: withdraw or die.

This website was the most important resource I ever found to help me do that. There was no help to be found from physicians who simply quoted from the Cymbalta box, or from the Eli Lilly sales rep.

I see you are thinking about withdrawing from Cymbalta. You've found the right resource to help you through that journey! There are many brilliant, compassionate, and experienced people here to help.

But if Cymbalta has saved you from severe depression, why get off?

[greenpurple]

Hi this moment! Thank you so much for such a thoughtful response!

I started neurofeedback without the intention of going off the medication but instead to reduce my sensory processing disorder symptoms. In order to do the neurofeedback, I had to back down from the medication. And WOW! My brain started working better than it ever had and I did recognize I had been emotionally flat, perhaps for 30 years. I realized after 30 years, various medications had kept me functioning but, I had still been mildly depressed all this time. I hadn't known differently!

You are right- Neurofeedback is so expensive! I am blessed to be able to afford some of it. And so is Cymbalta/Duloxetine. No wonder folks are so mad!!

Now that I've begun the neurofeedback road, I am so excited to see what is possible getting off my medsor reducing. I'm curious if I've been experiencing some of the side effects you all have been experiencing without knowing it. I've already forked out quite a bit of money (inheritance) and so can't afford unlimited neurofeedback but want to go off Cymbalta sloooooooowly, like everyone here has recommended. I went down from 90
To 60mg, no prob. Then started pellet counting as so many have recommended. I've cut down 10% each month (very sloooowwwww). Now I am down to 153 pellets and am quite proud of that! And I'm feeling great.

I think I may be cutting down too slowly if I am doing neurofeedback. At this rate, it would take me 360 more sessions (neurofeedback 2x per week and cutting 10% each month)!!!! That is absolutely impossible financially. Even twice as fast isn't a possibility (180 sessions)!

Does anyone have an idea how quickly I could cut down with minimal withdrawals while doing neurofeedback??? Any stories??

You all are so generous. What a wonderful resource. I'm a psychotherapist, myself, and receiving such support (instead of giving it) is such a blessing.

Gratitude to you all!

[gail]

Hello Greenpurple, Thismoment,

 

Can you explain in simple words what neurofeedback is? I am curious about this, never heard of it. Thank you.

[greenpurple]

Sure. It's biofeedback for the brain. You get a QEEG (test) which determines if there are any parts of your brain not making enough of a certain type of brain wave or too much or if there are parts of brain not talking to each other. Then, over a series of sessions, you watch a movie with a fuzzy screen which gets clear when you make the brain waves that the computer wants (fixing the parts that weren't ok). You don't try. Unconsciously, you practice over and over making the brain waves the computer wants you to make. After 10+ sessions, you take another QEEG to see if the problem was fixed. Then, if there's still stuff that's not right in the brain, you do another 10+ sessions and fine tune and so on and so on until your brain is "normal."

The problem is that while taking medication, it makes it a much longer and complicated process. I make it sound easy. Just beware for an adult it can take up to 200 sessions. It can also take much much less, especially for kiddos.

[thismoment]

The enabling characteristic within the brain is its neuroplasticity- that capacity to physically alter itself with repeated thoughts and/or actions. And it's this neuroplastic nature that makes our recovery from these drugs so physically and emotionally painful: it puts a whole new meaning on "it's hard to change". Indeed, and it's hard to change back.

"You become what you pay attention to"; it's why practice makes perfect!

There are many skills and elements of character that require your actual (as opposed to virtual) presence to successfully create meaningful changes: You can't learn a language by playing recordings while you sleep; you can't practice compassion and feel authentic biofeedback from the person to whom you are being compassionate; and you can't learn to shoot consistent 3-pointers without actually standing on the basketball court and shooting until your shoulder aches.

The body is the sensory extension of the brain, the true interface for authentic biofeedback.

Greenpurple, I think you could reduce by 1% per day without much problem.

Here's a concern: The process of discontinuation will change your brain, and some of the progress achieved via the neurofeedback may be lost (or irrelevant) due to the changing landscape of your brain. Perhaps consider reducing or stopping the neurofeedback sessions until you are free and clear of the re-construction project in your brain. Then go back in with a more stable platform.

". . . you practice over and over making the brain waves the computer wants you to make." A person more cynical than I might ask, "Who programmed the computer, and do they have an agenda?" lol

I sense that you are pretty up-beat and positive, and those attributes will be a huge bonus to the project of withdrawal. Take care.

[greenpurple]

Thanks much!

[gail]

"You become what you pay attention to"; it's why practice makes perfect!

 

Many thanks for these infos, I am amazed!

 

Neurofeedback, wow!  and since it is so expensive, what would be the alternative to achieve this goal during discontinuation?

Time? positive thoughts? practicing what?

 

The body is the sensory extension of the brain, the true interface for authentic biofeedback.

I know that it may seem dumb, but I do not understand the meaning of this phrase. Can you translate this in french?

 

I feel like I am in third grade, I guess I am in this department, sorry.

[Xanazul]

Gail:
One of my first sentences to my students when I teach the Nervous System course: There is nothing in our brain that has not previously been in our senses (that is in our body).
From the very moment of birth (and most probably before), the brain shapes itself in response to physical (sounds, light, temperature, pressures.....) chemical (flavours, odours, humidity...) signals that are detected by our senses and processed in two different ways: the identificación of the stimulus itself, and its relationship to the context where the stimulus takes place.
This is basically what neurofeedback does: to use the "gates" to our brain, that our senses are, to try the reshaping of discrete regions thus "normalizing" brain functions.
In my opinion, despite the "scientific apparel" it is clothed (EEG responses to the positive or negative stimuli, pinpointing of the brain areas...) it has not much advantages, over any other empirical methods (including the century old ones) that may be used to influence brainwave entrainment, brain connections reshaping or the volume and density of brain areas involved in cognition, mood and emotion processing.
But again, this is just my opinion.
We know so little about how our brain works, that I guess for the moment: "if it makes you feel better do it" has to be the motto.
Wish you all more and more good days

[thismoment]

Hi Gail

 

"The body is the sensory extension of the brain, the true interface for authentic biofeedback." This is what you asked about, and here's what I meant: Your body sees, touches, smells, hears, tastes, and perhaps senses other activity about to occur (the 6th sense). These senses are the intermediary probes between the world and your brain. Your brain takes the experiences delivered from the senses and stores, categorizes, and interprets that information, and in general that data forms the basis of your worldview- who you are, what you know, and what you believe.

 

". . . the brain shapes itself in response to physical . . . chemical . . . signals that are detected by our senses and processed in two different ways: the identification of the stimulus itself, and its relationship to the context where the stimulus takes place." Xanazul.

 

These two statements are saying essentially the same thing: put your hand in fire, and that experience will change your brain so that when you encounter fire again you'll remember the event and you won't put your hand in the fire. 

 

Taking your temperature with a thermometer is a form of biofeedback. You can listen to your heartbeat via a stethoscope and actually cause it to slow down- that's an example of neurofeedback. 

 

Neurofeedback or neurobiofeedback- There is a "normal" pattern of brain activity for a person's gender and age. There are a number of different EEG brain signatures for depression, ADD, and anxiety (for example), and your EEG is compared to those-- this is called a Quantitative Electroencephalogram or QEEG. Then it's determined what type of neurofeedback therapy would benefit you most. You are hooked up to the machine via scalp probes, and on a screen you view brainwave representative patterns with which you interface and alter directly. Do it enough (practice) and your brain changes.

 

This technology has supporters and critics. I don't know enough about it to offer criticism of the service, but I do think that when you include the whole body and all of your senses in real situations when training your brain, the result is always authentic, profound, and long-lasting.

[gail]

Thank you both for your explanations. I would have liked to know how I can do this by myself.

 

In regards to anxiety, my first reaction is, no, not you again, I hate it and I hate it. It is hard to focus on something else, and that for a few hours. I spiral back in my mind, thinking the worst.

 

Now, if I change my internal dialogue, with practice to, like thinking . let it be, it will pass, and force myself, and I mean put effort in that, to think positively instead of with fear, could that change something in my brain's response eventually?

[fishinghat]

That last question was the big one. Yes and No. The current thought is if one "changes my internal dialogue, with practice to,  let it be, it will pass, and force myself, and I mean put effort in that, to think positively instead of with fear, could that change something in my brain?" The answer is yes. With time the brain is rewired to a certain extent. No one is going to say it will get rid of all your anxiety but it will help. There are many current psychologists who adhere to the belief that how successful this is depends on your personality type. There have been studies done that show type A personalities, those with a strong scientific or logical brain tend to be very difficult to succeed at this method. Those with artistic and passive personalities show a higher degree of success. Matter of fact there is a lot of data out there that those with type A analytical minds are almost impossible to treat for anxiety.

[gail]

Hey Fishinghat, just yesterday I was thinking to myself how wonderful it would be to have a a strong scientific or logical brain!

 

And now, I am happy to see that I dont have type A. Just to be able to minimise that anxiety by rewiring my thinking, I will work on that. Thank you FishingHat, It wont be easy, one year of reacting in the same way, negative thoughts, fear and despair. I will start practicing, even when I feel good. Like right now, in silence, for a more positive attitude concerning this pest.

Did I mention before that I... yes I did.

[fishinghat]

That is where a good psychologist can come in handy. They really help with a lot of good tips  As far as 'negative thoughts', only one year. You are just a beginner. lol  I have been that way all my life. After all my life's motto is ....It always looks the darkest just before it turns black!! lol

[thismoment]

Gail

 

'Thinking' the thoughts is not as effective as 'doing' the thoughts via your behaviour. Talk to your therapist about Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), and Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT). 

 

This way, your every action throughout the day is putting positive input into your brain; you're re-building your mind with new, healthy, and empowering  strategies.

[Xanazul]

FH, I believe that A&B personality types have been defined as predictors for stress response and cardiovascular risk rather than to neuroplasticity.
It is true though that among the classical personality types: narcissist, esquizoid, hysteric, obsessive..., this later in the one that should theoretically be more resistent to the mindfulness and acceptance techniques that are being sucessfully used to cope with anxiety disorders.
However (and quite surprisingly) as first described by Williams, Teasdale, Segal and Kabat-Zinn and many others during the last seven years, obsessive thinkers are the ones that obtain more benefits from mindfulness and acceptance based therapies.
The reason for that, (always according to the quoted authors) lies in the fact that both anxiety and depression result from and are fueled by obsessive thinking that in turn produces changes in brain architecture that lead to anxiety, depression and more obsessive thinking, in a hellish self reinforced circle. Any therapy that changes the thinking patterns, has many chances to succeed in reshaping brain structures and (as it has been repeatedly shown) improve/heal mood disorders (to date depression and depression relapses, GAD, PTSD, as well as many psychosomatic and stress related conditions).
Most of the above mentioned techniques need to be learned from a proficient teacher and practiced regularly in order to obtain results.
I've explored PubMed thoughfully and found more than 1800 entries for mindfulnesss in the last eight years and I pretty confident that learning new ways of process our thoughts, we can change our brain, and.... our life

[gail]

Xanazul, just love what you wrote, I can identify with the anxiety and depression fueled by obsessing thinking.

 

This is my motivation to start reprogramming my thoughts, reshaping brain structures as you mention.

 

Thismoment, still on the waiting list for therapy. Have started on some actions. Well 2 or 3 for the moment, and that brings a smile to my face.Yes it is an effort to begin, and am beginning to look forward to continue those actions, except when to tired to move. One step at a time.

 

And I reserved the book of Zabat Zinn at the library.

 

I love you all, you bring insight and knowledge, merci, thank you and gracias!

[gail]

Hello, just found this article, well, part if the article and wanted to share it with you.

 

One of the most powerful actions you can take in combating depression is to understand how critical the quality of your thinking is to maintaining and even intensifying your depression—and that the quickest way to change how you feel is to change how you think. Often enough you can't control how you feel, but you can always control how you think. There's an active choice you can take—if you are aware that changing your thinking is important.

It's not an accident that cognitive therapy is one of the most researched and practiced of depression treatments. It is based on the fact that thought-processing errors contribute so much to depressed mood.

It is possible to take action and to change patterns of thinking on your own. There are six action strategies that bring the quickest results in breaking out of the negative thought patterns that maintain your depression.

• Know that it is possible to control the quality of your thinking. That contributes more to how you feel than any other factor. It is a widespread but false belief that you have to change your feelings in order to change how you think; it is actually the other way around.

 

Love the last part.

[thismoment]

Hi Gail

 

That's great; this kind of material helps us to get moving in the right direction. Here's the link to that article by Hara Estroff Marano.

 

http://www.psycholog...ng-the-thinking

 

You will find this material in Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy, but with different terminology. Here is a quote from the article: "This relationship broke up; I'll never find a partner." The author refers to this kind of thinking as "black-and-white" thinking. In MBCT it's called "fused" thought, and you are given strategies to "de-fuse" the thought, and here's an example of that: "This relationship broke up; sometimes it feels like I'll never find a partner." Now the thought leaves room for improvement.

 

Should you be introduced to MBCT, you will find what's in the article and much more. I am so happy you are on this path; the fact that you are already thinking and searching in this direction is half the battle. I am sure you will succeed!

[fishinghat]

FH, I believe that A&B personality types have been defined as predictors for stress response and cardiovascular risk rather than to neuroplasticity.
It is true though that among the classical personality types: narcissist, esquizoid, hysteric, obsessive..., this later in the one that should theoretically be more resistent to the mindfulness and acceptance techniques that are being sucessfully used to cope with anxiety disorders.
However (and quite surprisingly) as first described by Williams, Teasdale, Segal and Kabat-Zinn and many others during the last seven years, obsessive thinkers are the ones that obtain more benefits from mindfulness and acceptance based therapies.
The reason for that, (always according to the quoted authors) lies in the fact that both anxiety and depression result from and are fueled by obsessive thinking that in turn produces changes in brain architecture that lead to anxiety, depression and more obsessive thinking, in a hellish self reinforced circle. Any therapy that changes the thinking patterns, has many chances to succeed in reshaping brain structures and (as it has been repeatedly shown) improve/heal mood disorders (to date depression and depression relapses, GAD, PTSD, as well as many psychosomatic and stress related conditions).
Most of the above mentioned techniques need to be learned from a proficient teacher and practiced regularly in order to obtain results.
I've explored PubMed thoughfully and found more than 1800 entries for mindfulnesss in the last eight years and I pretty confident that learning new ways of process our thoughts, we can change our brain, and.... our life

I feel like you agree with me. Certainly "A&B personality types have been defined as predictors for stress response..." and therefore more susceptible to anxiety,.PTSD etc.

I have read that there is a correlation between type A&B personalities and obsessive/compulsive and that o/c mentality interferes with neuroplasticity.

 

I didn't mean to indicate that people with these characteristics can't have success only that it is more difficulty.

[greenpurple]

Hi All!

So glad this thread has taken off, though I wish there were more anecdotal stories about neurofeedback!

My two cents, as a pretty experienced therapist and "therapy connisieour" myself-after decades of talk and cognitive therapy-there is a limit to what the conscious part of the brain can do therapeutically. We are so lucky to be alive during a boom of neuroscientific findings.

I have expanded now into treating other parts of the brain/nervous system via sensorimotor psychotherapy (somatic psychology), neurofeedback, EMDR, clinical hypnosis and mindfulness-based practice. I have personally made more progress in a session of somatic therapy (sensorimotor psychotherapy) than a decade of talk therapy. If the issues are limited to thoughts and beliefs, the cognitive-based therapy may be enough. If we are working on trauma or nervous system dysregulation, I have found other therapies must be involved that treat the subcortcal areas of the brain/nervous system. FASCINATING STUFF. Check out work of Bruce Perry, Dan Siegel, Pat Odgen and others. Hope this post is helpful to somebody. Best to you all!

Warmly,
GP

[thismoment]

Hi greenpurple

" I have personally made more progress in a session of somatic therapy (sensorimotor psychotherapy) than a decade of talk therapy."
This is absolutely fascinating! Do you know of some sources of material and/or studies on sensorimotor psychotherapy?

I agree that talk therapy is often marginally productive; it's long, slow, hit-and-miss, and expensive. And when antidepressants are prescribed in advance of talk therapy (as is most often the case), neither the therapist nor the patient knows what version of the patient is showing up for the session.

[greenpurple]

Hi this moment!

It IS fascinating. Absolutely FASCINATING and powerful. That's why I dropped a whole lot of cash to get trained in this method! Go to Sensorimotor Psychotherapy Institute website. They should have research listed. If not, let me know, because I have some hard copies. Also, read the book Trauma and the Body by Pat Ogden and others. She's got a new book coming out about now, as well. If you read up on any of this stuff, I'd love to hear your feedback about it.

[thismoment]

Greenpurple

Thank you so much! I will look into it.

[Xanazul]

FH,
You are right in that A type personality shares many traits with the classical obsessive type of personality. However as counterintuitive as it may sound evidences are accumulating for these being the people that respond more satisfactorily to MBCT (most probably because it addresses what constitutes the etiology of their suffering).
And, no my friend, I did not believed you were saying there was not hope.
Take care of yourself and please continue to be as careful as you are with all of us.

[Xanazul]

Gail,
if what I've said above sounds familiar to you, go for it. "The mindful way through depression", the book by Williams..... gave me a great comfort and hope when I read it few years ago. It comes with a CD by Kabat-Zinn with all the training exercises. I must say that although I did the eight weeks training three years ago with a former Z Segal PhD student, my state of mind was in such a terrible mess that I simply was unable to benefit, nor did I perseverate (which is essential to achieve any lasting improvement), I did fall into Cymbalta's claws instead (must say however that Cymbalta was not such an evil for me and did a lot to preserve my sanity in those troubled days). I am starting over the eight weeks training from a different position and more convinced now than then (PubMed is full of reports) that it will work.
I do not feel right now, like I will make it at all, but we will find the peace of mind and body that we all deserve, despite of my somber and gloomy feelings of today.

[gail]

Hello Xanazul, thank you so much for the reference on the book by Williams.

 

My main difficulty is anxiety, witch is getting better and better by the way, and a few depressive moods.

The mindfull way through depression surely applies to anxiety, am I correct?

 

And is it something you can do by yourself? sure hope so, where I live, it is mostly esoteric ways to treat the brain's flaws and also a lot of talking and talking therapy which I have been on for so long, that does not help me, well for a few hours only.

 

I will look into it, and again, Xanazul, I apreciate your knowledge and your time, muchas gracias from Canada.

[thismoment]

Xanazul

 

"I do not feel right now, like I will make it at all . . . my somber and gloomy feelings of today." 

 

I know that day- I totally have been there: body down, mind down, weary inside and out- a dark shroud of profound pointlessness. It's like influenza of the mind; it's the worst broken heart.

 

Maybe look for solace in your favourite melancholy music today, and just go with it.

 

Take care.

[Xanazul]

Gail,
The book is mainly about depression, but as you might have experienced both in your mind and body, anxiety and depression are two sides of the same coin.
Also, since the book was written, there had been many reports of trials conducted by different research groups world wide, that demonstrate the effectiveness of mindfulness techniques as a tool to cope with many different anxiety disorders, including generalized anxiety, obsessive-compulsive or postraumatic stress disorder, as well as many stress-related conditions such as hypertension, chronic pain or cognitive impairments.
There are also a handful of reports that show the existence of changes in brain structure, in response to the continued practice of mindfulness, as measured by MNR, PET and other image techniques,
For what I know, the ability to practice mindfulness meditation and acceptance is not an easy one to adquire, and having a experienced coach and master it surenly would help, but nevertheless I am convinced that we can make it following the instructions and using all the will and perseverance we can gather.
Take much care.

An interesting web:
http://www.stress.org/

[Xanazul]

TM,
Thank you, because yours are more than words.