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Article: Mentions Extended Withdrawal That Can Last Years....


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#1 FiveNotions

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Posted 28 November 2014 - 11:16 PM


This was published in a Danish research journal, but I was able to find this pre-publication version in English ..... the author refers to "extended" withdrawal as "enduring" withdrawal ...

SEROTONIN AND SSRI DISCONTINUATION SYNDROME (2013)
http://flipper.diff....items/info/6637

 

The first part of the article is pure science, and can be skipped ... however, the last 2/3 of the article is the discussion, and is worth reading I think ... for example ....

From the article:

Enduring withdrawal

We don’t know what causes enduring antidepressant withdrawal. It may be nothing to do with serotonin. Similar problems happen on antipsychotics and benzodiazepines, too.

In fact, benzodiazepines, another antidepressant class of drugs, are involved in a sort of withdrawal symptoms like SSRI, so there is no evidence of difference between their side effects.
Researchers also noticed that there are, actually, no differences between benzodiazepine and SSRI action.

What is the difference between dependence and withdrawal reactions? A comparison of benzodiazepines and selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitors.2012

SSRI withdrawal varies among individuals: may not be a problem for someone, while for others can last years. All the enduring problems can follow either abrupt or tapered discontinuation of treatment.
Also nowdays we don’t know how common these states are: many people presenting to their doctors are told they have a recurrent mood disorder and are put back on an antidepressant because the problems look “depressive”, and most doctors don’t think that problems of this sort could persist this long.


#2 TryinginFL

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 09:29 AM

FN,

 

I can't read this right now - it's too depressing


#3 FiveNotions

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 10:08 AM

No need to read it, TFL ... it simply validates, via "research," what we here already know, via experience ... this effects of getting off of Cymbalta can last for a very long time ... not just the "couple of weeks or a month" that the docs tell us ... and, the healing and recovery can take as long as a couple of years ... remember, TM told us he'd been off the stuff for ... was it 2 1/2 years? Anyway, it can take a long time ... especially for those of us who are older, had been on crapalta longer ... also a factor is why we were put on the poison, and what other medical issues we're dealing with ... it's complicated, and it ain't as simple as the drug cos tell the docs it is ...

 

Also, there is more and more and more research being done on antidepressant withdrawal ... especially the ones like Cymbalta, that are so very powerful in their effect on serotonin ... my sense is that the "research community" is finally picking up on what the reality is and are starting to look into this issue ... perhaps the "accumulated suffering" and efforts to speak out by so many thousands of us is finally beginning to bear some fruit ... :)


#4 brzghoff

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 01:01 PM

interesting read, however DO NOT GET DISCOURAGED! other than the basic statement, "SSRI withdrawal varies among individuals: may not be a problem for someone, while for others can last years." it does not appear that there is any supporting evidence to back up the "for years" statement. as a result, it would be difficult to persuade our doctors to consider this report as having a scientific basis - proof that discontinuation syndrome lasts more than a month or so. it comes from a web site that is meant to be a discussion between students and professors/instructors at Turin University. certainly a spring board towards real scientific peer reviewed research, but i suspect it is anecdotal evidence a la dr shipko. keep in mind he admitted that there were mitigating circumstances in all his patients who after more than a year had not yet recovered. after that they disappeared, for all he knows, they did recover and just never came back. he admitted that too.

 

the reason i want to point this out is to encourage all of us in withdrawal not to surrender to the idea that recovery is "hopeless". i do not believe it is - i am no one special. i was on top-end dosages of SSRI/SSNRI's for 18 years and specifically cymbalta for 10 - it doesn't get much more immersed in exposure than that. i have seen a progressive improvement, albeit cyclic, and have no reason to believe i won't continue to improve. key for me is therapy, preferable CBT and avoiding alternate medications as much as possible, exchanging one psychoactive for another just sets us up with a different withdrawal. especially with benzos-  they are not meant to be used for long term or they will put you in the exact same place as cymbalta - they poop out, switching benzos to get relief (which is often done) is like paying off one credit card with another. you are still in debt. many doctors prescribe benzos like they were aspirin, but then they do that with anti-depressants too. isn't that why we ended up on cymbalta in the first place - without being provided informed consent? our doctors didn't know anything about cymbalta. recovery is hard work, it requires active participation and results are not immediate - it will take time. its hell. we know that.

 

surrendering to negative self talk such as "i can't do this" "it doesn't work" or "look, the evidence says it could be permanent" are a path to self fulfilling prophecy . instead of worrying about if it will last forever, worry about "what if i recover?" "what if i get better?" "what if i end up living a normal life?"


#5 FiveNotions

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Posted 29 November 2014 - 01:08 PM

Absolutely agree, Brzghoff ... what I took from that article isn't "give up" or "it can't get better" or "it'll absolutely positively take forever" ... what I took away was ... yes, indeed, researchers are realizing that for some of us, getting off an antidepressant isn't quick, and it isn't easy ... and, I took away a reinforced conviction that we need to be patient with ourselves, and allow lots of time ... not set specific "dates certain" by when we "must" or "will" be completely well again ...

 

This is a process, it's different for each and every one of us, and there is absolutely, positively HOPE, and IMPROVEMENT ....

 

Thanks for that post, Brz !


#6 ShadyLady

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 03:37 PM

Interesting article and comments. I have not been posting because if I type more than 4 lines, my IPad screen freezes and then erases my post and says 'Error - You are not authorized to post. Go to log in' uurrgh:o. I have two Ipads, so it is not the pad. I downloaded IOS
8.01 on both and this is when 'freezing' began. Ironically, only on this site!

I need to post. I am 6 months off the shit tomorrow and hopeless, no sense of purpose, wake up with dread to face another day of nothingness, just not able to move beyond this. NOTHING matters to me. I'm just saying! Thanks

#7 TryinginFL

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 03:56 PM

SL,

 

Congratulations on 6 months off!  You have come a long way, even if you don't feel like it...   I truly believe that sometimes we just go back and forth with the symptoms - I still feel that, even though I have been off over 11 months now.  I continue to ask myself how long this discontinuation will last.

 

I realized today that I actually came off of 3 meds at the same time - all cold turkey!  Not a wise decision, but then I didn't know any better and never gave it a serious thought. (Obviously, I should have!)  It was Cymbalta, Gabapentin and Trazodone - now that I think back, I realize how stupid that was.  This probably accounts for what a horrible past year this has been - I hope to someday recover, but I am functioning, so that is something at least. :unsure:

 

I hope that your IPad can get with the program - sounds like a real pain! :angry:

 

Please stay here with us - we want to hear how you're progressing and I pray that it will get better, my friend.

 

Love and hugs,

Liz :hug:


#8 ShadyLady

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:51 PM

Thanks, Liz. I, too, stopped Cymbalta, Gabapentin & Methadone cold turkey. I have to get out of here, anywhere. Things are too strange with Bildo. Not sure what he is what up to, but I have to gain some measure of control or I am doomed. Cryptic I know. I can't even come up with the lighter side of things to leave. Can't bear the thought of leaving my babies (dogs), but I have no choice if I am going to save myself. I quit all the drugs to gain some control, it backfired. My dogs will be fine, I will not if I stay.

I am so sorry for all of us who have journeyed this road less travelled from Cymbalta to the unknown. Many are living their lives, others move on and I wonder what has happened to them. I will believe they found a measure of peace to go on.

#9 TryinginFL

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 08:01 PM

Oh, SL...

 

I feel so terrible for you - do you have family or a friend that you could go to?  I know that you need the mental support that you are obviously not getting now.  It is so important for you - I want to help you - please let me know if there is anything that any of us can do for you.

 

I understand how you feel about your dogs - mine are my babies too.  

 

Are you currently in any type of therapy - and forgive me, I forget everything these days, but are you taking anything to help you through this mess - another med, benzo or anything?

 

Please pm if you need to...

 

I wish nothing but the best for you, special friend... and yes, we all need that peace.

 

Liz :hug:


#10 ShadyLady

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 08:10 PM

I am taking 20mg Prozac for eight weeks now. I have upped the Xanax as needed and I don't give a shit about the crutch of it. I am trying to save myself from another 'Jamaican pow camp' right now. I have called a friend and ask her if I can stay with her a few days as I don't want to do 'something stupid' as TM referred to. I knew my situation was bad, but didn't understand how it could take me any lower than I already was. I will fight the best I can and do whatever it take to fight this monster. Surely, life can get better without any of the things I thought were important and provided a false sense of security at the cost of my soul.

It must get better, God knows.

#11 TryinginFL

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 08:20 PM

SL,

 

I took and still do take Alprazolam (Xanax) as I feel that it is a great help and at this point have no intention of getting off of it.  I feel that it is currently necessary and I don't care either if it is a crutch, as it helps.  We do what we have to do.  Do you feel that the Prozac is helping?  There are others here on the forum who also are taking it to help with the misery of this whole mess.

 

I hope that you can stay with your friend as I feel that this will be of some help - getting out of where you feel that you are continually going downhill has to be a thought of getting some peace.  You need this!

 

You will remain in my prayers...


#12 ShadyLady

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 08:33 PM

Thank you, dear soul. No, if the Prozac was helping why would I feel such hopelessness and despair? I have an appt on dec 11thnto discuss the lifelessness. I will take whatever he says, I Cannot fight this in this state of mind. It is not good days with bad days. I wake up and try to make it through one more day. My life insurance policy has matured past the suicidal clause. Bildo is pushing me over the edge as I have no strength to fight or comprehend his behavior of late. I am trying to stay calm and act clueless, but it is bigger than me. Hopeful I can get some legal advise while I stay at my friends, I allowed unspeakable behavior and it will take a lot of counseling to get me functioning in the real world.

#13 TryinginFL

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 08:41 PM

If things are that bad, please get out now!  You are scaring me with your words...


#14 Blackbird

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 12:27 AM

I too am discouraged beyond words.  It's been almost 8 months off.  My voice is not much better.   So tired of sounding like a moron.  Found out that  due to a prior car accident, my cervical bones are pinched.  Hence, no nutrients are getting into my brain for repair.  I'm finding it increasingly hard to live like this.

 

Now chiropractor visits 3 x a week,  and some soundbed treatments again at $100 a pop.  He says my nervous system has been damaged.

 

I told the soundbed guy that I will NOT live like this.


#15 ZappAlta

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 02:21 AM

Thank you, dear soul. No, if the Prozac was helping why would I feel such hopelessness and despair? I have an appt on dec 11thnto discuss the lifelessness. I will take whatever he says, I Cannot fight this in this state of mind. It is not good days with bad days. I wake up and try to make it through one more day. My life insurance policy has matured past the suicidal clause. Bildo is pushing me over the edge as I have no strength to fight or comprehend his behavior of late. I am trying to stay calm and act clueless, but it is bigger than me. Hopeful I can get some legal advise while I stay at my friends, I allowed unspeakable behavior and it will take a lot of counseling to get me functioning in the real world.

Awwwww Shady sooo sorry you are feeling so lousy .Any way you can board the dogs for a while untill you find a suitable living place.   Feel free to pm me


#16 TryinginFL

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 10:32 AM

Oh Blackbird,

 

My heart goes out to you...I am so sorry that you are still having such difficulties. 

 

How terrible for you to have to continue with those treatments.  I hope that you are aware of Knox Ricksen LLC.  If not, please PM me  -  am afraid this post could be deleted.

 

You will stay in my thoughts and prayers - this poison has to be stopped!  Unfortunately, you have suffered more than anyone could imagine.

 

Liz :hug:


#17 gail

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 12:22 PM

I have not posted in a while.

Reading you all, I can see that I am not the only one here to feel like this.

Nine months and one week off, depression, anxiety, emptiness, nightmares, eerie feeling when I wake, on and off. Cyclic. More off than on . when I think its over, here it is again.

I remember TM, at least a year to get it right. Well, half right maybe.

There is no pattern to this. At least, if there was a pattern, I would know what to expect.

Brz, sorry for the Prozac not working. Same here with seroquel. Another shit to withdraw from, happy to be at only 50 now. Happy is a strong word here.
I am also in the, What is the sense phase again.

Blackbird, so sorry for what you are going through. On your last post you seemed to be getting better. But hey, many of us do feel better for a while and kaboom!

And the famous phrase "Will this ever end".

#18 FiveNotions

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 12:33 PM

Zappa, I just started that topic/thread you suggested ... I didn't mean to steal the ball from you, but assume you just haven't had a chance to get back here to get it going ... and we sure do need it, so I just went ahead and did it .... Zappa, Gail, Blackbird, SL, TFL, Brz,  Renee, Wagtail, Clara ... all of us 6+ months and more off the crap survivors ..... head on over and let 'er rip ... :P

 

it's titled "Extended withdrawal/discontinuation discussion" ...

 

I gotta' get back to work, but will check back later to add my "take" on this delightful new phase of healing and recovery ... cuz that's what it is ... we ARE moving forward, it just isn't quite the smooth sailing we'd dreamed about .... :blink: :wacko: :unsure:


#19 brzghoff

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 12:57 PM

Thank you, dear soul. No, if the Prozac was helping why would I feel such hopelessness and despair? I have an appt on dec 11thnto discuss the lifelessness. I will take whatever he says, I Cannot fight this in this state of mind. It is not good days with bad days. I wake up and try to make it through one more day. My life insurance policy has matured past the suicidal clause. Bildo is pushing me over the edge as I have no strength to fight or comprehend his behavior of late. I am trying to stay calm and act clueless, but it is bigger than me. Hopeful I can get some legal advise while I stay at my friends, I allowed unspeakable behavior and it will take a lot of counseling to get me functioning in the real world.

 

ShadyLady,

 

while its good to see you back on the forum, i am sorry to learn that you are struggling, it sounds as though there are serious mitigating circumstances, which complicates recovery immensely. not knowing what you are going through i cannot possible understand how you feel and why. i would like to share that if it is possible to physically remove yourself from the situation that is creating your agony and distress, please do so as soon as possible. i know i am echoing the sentiments of others and hope that my "voice" in the matter will strengthen your resolve to do right by yourself. 

 

i am happy to hear that you have an appointment on the 11th. having a "plan"can help in managing the "present" and bringing some mental relief. 

 

my heart goes out to you.


#20 brzghoff

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 01:00 PM

I have not posted in a while.

Reading you all, I can see that I am not the only one here to feel like this.

Nine months and one week off, depression, anxiety, emptiness, nightmares, eerie feeling when I wake, on and off. Cyclic. More off than on . when I think its over, here it is again.

I remember TM, at least a year to get it right. Well, half right maybe.

There is no pattern to this. At least, if there was a pattern, I would know what to expect.

Brz, sorry for the Prozac not working. Same here with seroquel. Another shit to withdraw from, happy to be at only 50 now. Happy is a strong word here.
I am also in the, What is the sense phase again.

Blackbird, so sorry for what you are going through. On your last post you seemed to be getting better. But hey, many of us do feel better for a while and kaboom!

And the famous phrase "Will this ever end".

 

 

Gail, glad to see you back!

 

FYI, that's is ShadyLady who is struggling in spite of the prozac. i've never taken it ;-)


#21 ShadyLady

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:34 PM

Anxiety is exhausting physically and emotionally! I am trying to pack a bag to get away for a few days. All that is in it right now is underwear and denture cleanser:( It seems overwhelming to pack some sweats and other essentials...guess I better throw my meds in the bag or try a cold turkey run, right?

So sorry several of us are really fighting depression, purpose, mood dumps, motivation, loneliness...ummm, add to it. Why on earth did I stop taking the crap when my life was such a mess to begin with? Did I really think the Crap was a contributing factor? I cannot make any sound decisions or choices on the simplest aspects of my life at this time. Six months today off the shit and am more emotionally unstable than I ever remember. My thoughts cycle continuosly that my entire life has been one big f*%k up. Is this the re-wiring of the brain?

I am terrified of the prospects, but must step out into the unknown.

#22 ShadyLady

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:47 PM

Thanks for the wisdom and kind words, Brz. I wish I had learned some cognitive behavioural skills prior to stopping the C. You really seen in control of your thought processes and able to halt the circular thinking of despair.

I know I have to leave, but am so afraid whether or not I can take care of the daily necessities on my own. Where can I live on $2000 a month, can I pay the utilities etc. I don't know when it happened, 7 years ago maybe, that Bildo took over the finances, cooking, grocery shopping, etc. I t happened so subtely that only now do I see I chose the path of least resistance and allowed this. Strictly power and control. I do nothing right and at best, inadequate in his eyes. Where do I find purpose and hope now? The loneliness is smothering me. I believe I would be better alone and re-learning how to be kind to myself and develop some self esteem. It just sucks to be 58 and feel so incompetent to start over.

#23 ShadyLady

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:49 PM

Crap:(. I'm so sorry for spilling tmi. I need to be compassionate toward others here and take the frickin focus of myself. Put up or shut up, right?

#24 DoneWithCrap

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:54 PM

Anxiety is exhausting physically and emotionally! I am trying to pack a bag to get away for a few days. All that is in it right now is underwear and denture cleanser:( It seems overwhelming to pack some sweats and other essentials...guess I better throw my meds in the bag or try a cold turkey run, right?

So sorry several of us are really fighting depression, purpose, mood dumps, motivation, loneliness...ummm, add to it. Why on earth did I stop taking the crap when my life was such a mess to begin with? Did I really think the Crap was a contributing factor? I cannot make any sound decisions or choices on the simplest aspects of my life at this time. Six months today off the shit and am more emotionally unstable than I ever remember. My thoughts cycle continuosly that my entire life has been one big f*%k up. Is this the re-wiring of the brain?

I am terrified of the prospects, but must step out into the unknown. 

 

Sounds like we are on the same sinking mood ship. At least I don't have to pack. I'll go down with my ship


#25 DoneWithCrap

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:58 PM

This is the place for spilling, ShadyLady.

 

Any chance you could got to a group facility so you will have supportive staff?

Just a thought...


#26 TryinginFL

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 07:58 PM

SL,

 

This is also a safe place for venting - it's OK!  I remember when I went on that wretched trip to Hawaii for my son's wedding, I packed 3 times. Still didn't get it right. I had packed enough underwear to last me a year!  What a dumbass...  I know that I should have stayed home.

 

I understand what it's like to not be able to make a decision - no matter what it involves.  I still have problems with that.

 

We are all here for each other, dear ones - let it fly!  And, yes, I agree - we're all on that same stinkin' ship, it seems.  We'll all get through this somehow - I'm so happy that we have each other.

 

You both remain in my thoughts and prayers, Renee and SL....you can do this - believe me!!  (I have to keep telling myself this as well. :unsure:)


#27 DoneWithCrap

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 08:07 PM

Thank you TFL and SL  :hug:


#28 ShadyLady

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Posted 01 December 2014 - 08:14 PM

No group facility, Renee. Did that Jamaican p.o.w. Camp trying to find a facility back early Oct! All I received was a 5150 and loaded with drugs and horror stories of that hell hole.

Thanks for your honesty, Liz. It helps! I thought I was the only one at 6 months of incapable of making itty bitty shitty decisions. I want to post progress, but there seems little to none at the present. I get stuck counting my blessing from a-z before I go to sleep. Give it a try;)

#29 brzghoff

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 12:06 AM

SL, TFL, Renee and all,

 

dump away! that's what this is all about. the great thing about this place is how folks manage to lift each other up even when feeling low themselves

 

decision making while suffering anxiety is just shy of impossible. when we "freeze" and become paralyzed with our fear, we can barely even think much less resolve problems and make choices. its all so understandable. 

 

SL, thanks for the props but as for halting the circular thinking, its always a work in progress. i know what the job is that i have to do, spelling it out is the easy part, doing the work is...hard!  but step one is acknowledging that its up to me. of course, accepting that responsibility is scary when my confidence is shot.

 

i had an "episode" this evening. i've been tweaking my resume, to target my experience towards specific jobs i am pursuing. usually that type of activity boosts my morale but today it had the opposite effect. instead of building my confidence i looked at it and thought "who would want to hire me? i'll never get another job and we'll end up spending all our savings! we'll lose everything!" instant panic. i immediately allowed myself to be propelled into a downward spiral, mostly anxiety. i was convinced that finding a decent paying job is ridiculous at my age - i'm almost 55. now what evidence do i have to suggest that is true? i acknowledged that there is no evidence that what i was telling myself is true - but that didn't stop the sickening butterfly in my gut feeling from kicking my heart rate into overdrive. i'm still feeling low and frustrated and may have to surrender to the ambien to get to sleep tonight. i know all that stuff i was telling myself is not true - but it feels like it is. i just have to believe and rely on what i know is true. 

 

its easy to type up my strategy and see it on my compter screen - but i have my work cut out for me tonight. it don't come easy. 

 

i know my challenges are very small compared with having to leave your home and make a fresh start. SL, i am rooting for you - it takes a lot of courage to take that next step - but you are strong - you've endured and survived so much already. 


#30 ZappAlta

ZappAlta

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Posted 02 December 2014 - 05:55 AM

Shady give aging and adult services in your area or county a call>request to speak to a public health nurse or social worker .discuss your needs as in applying for affordable housing etc at the least get an application in to get on a waiting list.  





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