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2 Months Off After Somewhat Slow Taper. Really Struggling


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#691 fishinghat

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 01:28 PM

Absolutely right on point.


#692 Mxpro32

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 03:45 PM

just thought I would check in.  its been a while.  not a lot had been changing until recently.  I had been having anxiety at night, and pretty good anxiety during the day, but not feeling depressed or too terrible. I've had some really good days lately.  I had a 3 day stretch over the weekend where I felt alive and completely normal.  everything was in perspective and I wasn't having any anxiety or depression, and my sleep was better.  last night I woke up with bad anxiety again, but I just lowered my dose of klonopin a few days ago.  I'm down to .1mg.  it was really nice to feel normal again, it had been a while.  I can't help but think when I'm clear of the klonopin it will happen more often.  I'm trying to limit my exposure to politics, coronavirus news, social media, etc.  I think its helping.  I'm just too sensitive to stress and anxiety to feed myself any amount of that stuff.  I hope everyone else is doing well. 


#693 invalidusername

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 05:24 PM

Sensitivity to stress is top of the list - always has been, always will be.

 

I don't think my stress tolerance will ever be the same again after all these pills. But I am glad you are staying on the straight and narrow - just keep going slow and monitor how you are going at all times. One slip and that could put you out of action for days. 

 

Even for me, now 9 months in the clear, I made one slip and had the worst 48 hours imaginable. The sooner we learn how to look after ourselves the better.

 

Good to hear from you


#694 fishinghat

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 05:28 PM

I agree, with time the feelings of being normal will increase. Please continue to keep us posted.


#695 frog

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 06:13 PM

I was just thinking about you and wondering how you were doing! 

I feel like our experiences are pretty parallel given that we're off a similar amount of time and did not bridge into any other antidepressants so I always wonder how you're getting on. I'm glad to hear you've had some positive experiences recently. I had actually a pretty nice stretch of days a couple weeks ago where I felt the best I have probably in the last 9 months. But before that I had a stretch of a lot of anxiety, and now a stretch where I'm feeling really down about things and crying (I haven't cried like this in probably a month now). I just can't help but feel that it's impossible to be 9 months off and for anything to still be actively improving. Basically I can't help but believe the better days are kind of a fluke, and the days where I still feel anxious are the norm that I need to get used to. 


#696 Mxpro32

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Posted 06 July 2020 - 08:42 PM

I was just thinking about you and wondering how you were doing! 

I feel like our experiences are pretty parallel given that we're off a similar amount of time and did not bridge into any other antidepressants so I always wonder how you're getting on. I'm glad to hear you've had some positive experiences recently. I had actually a pretty nice stretch of days a couple weeks ago where I felt the best I have probably in the last 9 months. But before that I had a stretch of a lot of anxiety, and now a stretch where I'm feeling really down about things and crying (I haven't cried like this in probably a month now). I just can't help but feel that it's impossible to be 9 months off and for anything to still be actively improving. Basically I can't help but believe the better days are kind of a fluke, and the days where I still feel anxious are the norm that I need to get used to. 

I also feel at times like its impossible for things to be improving after 9 months off, but think about how bad things were vs. where you are now.  as you get closer to normal, its probably going to be tougher to see the improvements, especially when we still have occasional setbacks of anxiety or depression as you experienced.  that stuff is going to happen as we continue to heal.  I just try to think about how touch and go it was moment to moment back then.  I mostly don't get depressed anymore, which is an amazing thing considering the blanket of death that was over me not too long ago.  now I'm just dealing with anxiety, and lack of motivation, and insomnia which is waaayyy better than it was.  I would have killed to sleep longer than 4 hours even a single night before.  now on a bad night I wake up after 5-6 hours with anxiety, instead of 4 and waking up in a panic like a switch.  I think I have been underestimating the anxiety inducing effect of all the uncertainty in the world.  I've been feeding myself a constant diet of social media, news, and political unrest coverage which makes me start to feel like there is no positive future.  its been helping to back away from all of the negativity and focus on my family, relationships, and to be more present in the moment and try to slow life down.  I've been sucked into political conversations, and my anxiety and sleep suffers every time.  these are crazy times, and no doubt its not helping our recovery.  


#697 frog

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 03:30 PM

I do agree that if changes are still happening they're almost imperceptible at this point. But that's pretty much why it's hard to stop doubting that they're ever happening. My biggest fear is that now I'm just stuck the way that I currently am, because I don't think I'm as good as I was before going off Cym. I know I've expressed the same fear before and I was wrong, but since there's no way to know when things will stop changing, I keep worrying about it. 

 

COVID makes this whole journey more complicated in my opinion. The worst part of my recovery over the last 9 months has been the anxiety. Well now we're ALL anxious about what's going on. I wish I knew that the anxiety I'm feeling is largely related to stress from current situations. I think that would give me a lot of comfort that what I'm feeling right now is not permanent


#698 fishinghat

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 03:36 PM

I hate to keep saying this but stress and withdrawal". That is all it is. If you feel the same in 3 to 6 months with NO further improvement then worry. Not unusual at 9 months to feel like this.


#699 frog

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 03:40 PM

That probably depends on if COVID is behind us in 3 to 6 months lol


#700 invalidusername

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 06:37 PM

don't think it will ever be behind us...

 

Stuff like this never gets forgotten, so our future will forever be dictated by it. Bit like 9/11 in that respect. God Bless America.


#701 Mxpro32

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:10 PM

don't think it will ever be behind us...

 

Stuff like this never gets forgotten, so our future will forever be dictated by it. Bit like 9/11 in that respect. God Bless America.

 

thats a big source of my stress and obsession.  I don't want a new normal.  I want normal back.  


#702 Mxpro32

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Posted 07 July 2020 - 09:35 PM

so I was reading on a facebook cymbalta withdrawal group, and members were saying they have difficulty swallowing either while on cymbalta, or since tapering.  I just looked up the official side effects, and difficulty swallowing is on there.  I was just telling my wife the other day that I have a hard time getting food to go down.  I feel like I'm choking when I try to swallow food. it goes down in slow motion.  I was starting to worry I had throat cancer or something.  my throat always feels tight.  I don't remember if I had that before I started tapering off.  is this going to be permanent?


#703 fishinghat

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 08:27 AM

Mine passed.


#704 Mxpro32

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 12:58 PM

Mine passed.

you had trouble swallowing too?


#705 fishinghat

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 02:00 PM

Several Times. Difficulty swallowing is a common symptom during severe anxiety. The excess adrenaline not only causes heartpounding, fast pulse and tightening of the stomach but also what is called eosphageal constriction. Rare, but in extreme cases it can cause esophageal bezoars  which is blockage of the esophagus, usually by capsules used in medication/supplements and/or sticky foods like rice, peanut butter, etc. 


#706 Mxpro32

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 02:42 PM

It's worse sometimes than others, but it's no necessarily worse when I'm anxious

#707 invalidusername

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Posted 08 July 2020 - 06:29 PM

Yup - had that too!!

 

Hat - didn't you mentioned a gland in that area which does actually swell as a result of anxiety?? Long day, so can't recall that much information, but quite sure this was mentioned as it made a lot of sense at the time.


#708 fishinghat

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 08:40 AM

Not ringing a bell with me but I have slept since then.  lol


#709 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 11:13 AM

man, my anxiety has been through the roof in the mornings.  I've been waking after 5 hours, only instead of just waking up antsy and anxious, I'm on the verge of a panic attack and its lasting longer.  several hours after I wake I'm still on the verge of a panic attack.  the anxiety lasts all day to a degree.  I may have done too big a drop in my klonopin.  I went from .14mg to .1.  I started smaller and felt no increase in anxiety for a couple days so I dropped again.  at this point my scale is almost worthless though.  I get readings all over the place.  it amazes me how such a small drop can have such dramatic consequences.  every time I level out, i convince myself the anxiety is probably mostly in my head, until I make a drop and a few days later the anxiety spikes.  its unreal. 


#710 fishinghat

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:02 PM

Now you know why I drop 0.01 mg at a time. Nasty stuff.  You can use water titration to get exact small doses if you want.

 

How many times a day are you taking the benzo?


#711 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 03:25 PM

you drop .01mg at a time?  I thought you dropped even smaller than that.  I take it at bedtime only.  my scale will say zero, then it says .008mg if I tare it, then my pills are off by that amount.  its making it difficult to get the dose right.  how do you do water titration?  my anxiety is really bad today.  its about to run away into a full blown panic attack.  its awful.  


#712 fishinghat

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 04:59 PM

Water titration is pretty easy. 

 

For example if you have a 1 mg tablet you can dissolve it in 500 ml of water. 5ml would then contain 0.01 mg of Klonopin. Benzos do not dissolve well in water so be sure and shake the solution well before pulling out the 5 ml and taking it. The Klonopin is in the microscopic suspended particles. 

 

Also, taking the benzo once a day is not recommended during withdrawal as it produces large swings in the withdrawal symptoms. It is suggested that a person take their dose in 4 increments during the day (once every 6 hours) although I know many who have had pretty good success with once every 8 hours. This provides a much more stable withdrawal. 

 

If you want I can come up with a make up and dose for every 6 hours or 8 hours if you wish.


#713 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 05:36 PM

can I just use the little medicine dosing syringes for my kids medicine to dose it?  measuring cups should be precise enough to mix it in right?


#714 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 05:45 PM

my pills are .5mg how much water should I use to dissolve the pill into? could I dissolve it into 2 cups of water, which is 472ml,  then take 47ml of the solution using a syringe to get a .1mg dose?

 

also, I was worried if I broke up the dose that it would mess my sleep up more.  it has a 40 hour half life so I figured it would even out too.  


#715 invalidusername

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 06:07 PM

" I went from .14mg to .1.  I started smaller and felt no increase in anxiety for a couple days so I dropped again."

 

There is your answer right there.

 

And water titration would have been my go-to in your case.

 

Best of luck brother and take it slooooow!!


#716 Mxpro32

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Posted 09 July 2020 - 06:27 PM

" I went from .14mg to .1.  I started smaller and felt no increase in anxiety for a couple days so I dropped again."

 

There is your answer right there.

 

And water titration would have been my go-to in your case.

 

Best of luck brother and take it slooooow!!

yeah, I think I just need to resign myself to the fact that its going to take a while.  I have a hard time believing such little changes in dose could make that big of a difference, but it seems like thats the case.  everything in my life is stressing me out and making me lose it, but its probably just the withdrawal induced anxiety latching onto things in the real world.  I'm reacting to everything like my life is over.  my business has been somehow booming through this pandemic, so we are way backed up on orders, but orders have slowed way down this month so now I'm simultaneously stressing about being so far behind and not having orders.  one of my main guys hurt himself on his dirt bike and has been out a few weeks, so I'm feeling the pressure to be in the shop working, but it stresses me out so bad I'm having a hard time being out there.  we are so backed up a customer just cancelled and that sent me through the roof, even though I have been able to bank a bunch of money with all the sales we've had.  everything seems overwhelming.  I feel crushing anxiety, I feel like crying, and I feel like laughing at times.  and strangely enough, I feel as if I'm always going to feel this way, even though I suppose thats not true.  the inability to handle stress stresses me out.  I feel like I can't count on myself to function and thats scary.  thankfully, my business has been able to run without much input from me through the cymbalta withdrawals, but my freaked out state tells me that can't go on forever and I'm going to be screwed if I don't start functioning higher.  I know in my head its probably just the klonopin drop, but its overwhelming.  thanks for listening to me rant. 


#717 invalidusername

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 07:43 AM

MX...

 

I can tell you, with God as my witness, that this sounds EXACTLY like the messages I was writing at the same time. The detail is so alike. 

 

It is so difficult to understand that this is your normal at the moment, but it is. With the stress response, there is no middle ground, you are black and white thinking - you know you are... but you also know that this is not what should be, and that it will get better.

 

This happens purely as a result of decisions and thought processes originated from the primitive part of the brain - the amygdala and hippocampus. It is caveman mentality. Brains have evolve that then push these thoughts through the pre-frontal cortex which then rationalise these thoughts and this is where the middle ground comes in, but because of the chemical structure in your brain at the moment, you are missing the pre-frontal cortex out all together. 

 

Cavemen didn't have time to rationalise. It was a case of fight or flight - their life depended on it. Today we don't. but we still have that part of the brain, and when we have such a shock to the system, this is what happens. But it relearns. 

 

Sorry to go technical on you - it is my raison d'etre as an academic!!


#718 fishinghat

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 08:57 AM

Ok mxpro, because of the 40 hour half-life it should not mess up your sleep very much. Before you go to 4 times a day though i would stay with the at bed time only routine until you get a set measuring procedure and stabilize. 

 

I don't see anything wrong with your using the calibrated dropper for your dose. I am going to work on your makeup calcs n ow so will be back in a few minutes.


#719 fishinghat

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 09:03 AM

"my pills are .5mg how much water should I use to dissolve the pill into? could I dissolve it into 2 cups of water, which is 472ml,  then take 47ml of the solution using a syringe to get a .1mg dose?"

 

47 mls out of a total 472 ml is 1/10th. 1/10th of a 0.5 mg tablet is 0.05 mg. It would require you to take 94 mls to get the 0.1 mg dose.

 

How does that sound?


#720 Mxpro32

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Posted 10 July 2020 - 05:40 PM

MX...

 

I can tell you, with God as my witness, that this sounds EXACTLY like the messages I was writing at the same time. The detail is so alike. 

 

It is so difficult to understand that this is your normal at the moment, but it is. With the stress response, there is no middle ground, you are black and white thinking - you know you are... but you also know that this is not what should be, and that it will get better.

 

This happens purely as a result of decisions and thought processes originated from the primitive part of the brain - the amygdala and hippocampus. It is caveman mentality. Brains have evolve that then push these thoughts through the pre-frontal cortex which then rationalise these thoughts and this is where the middle ground comes in, but because of the chemical structure in your brain at the moment, you are missing the pre-frontal cortex out all together. 

 

Cavemen didn't have time to rationalise. It was a case of fight or flight - their life depended on it. Today we don't. but we still have that part of the brain, and when we have such a shock to the system, this is what happens. But it relearns. 

 

Sorry to go technical on you - it is my raison d'etre as an academic!!

you were still having this response from cymbalta 9 months out?  its tricky for me to tease out since I'm still tapering from klonopin.  I feel like I'm still having the waves and windows from cymbalta, its just complicated to tell because of the klonopin.  the insomnia comes back in waves, and I've noticed I get a little constipated and depressed when the insomnia is back.  its like a lack of serotonin.  





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