35 replies to this topic

[DThiessen]

I am starting a new thread here to address the issue of increased levels of Cortisol during AD withdrawal. It appears it is not uncommon. 

Since the  withdrawal my morning ACTH Levels are abnormally high at 1093 in the am (I forget what the conversion factor is) but apparently that is outrageous. They did many tests etc and everything came back 'idiopathic.' I told them it was probably my withdrawal but they weren't interested (no surprise).

 

So it has been 6 months since this all went down but my healing has been so slow that nothing much has changed - is it worth testing my cortisol again or should I wait another 6 months and see where I am at as not to stress myself out?

 

Does this level of high cortisol keep me in a state where I am possibly not healing or really really slowing down my healing.. it would make sense as I am healing SLOWWWW and it is BRUTAL. For ex the parathaesia's are JUST starting to leave at month 6, still have brain zaps, still have severe headaches (please note this is ALL since withdrawal) also my cortisol was tested many times prior to the withdrawal and was always in normal range (I also double checked this!)

 

If my body is deciding to be this slow at healing, could this high high cortisol be a major factor as this IS the stress hormone? Because if someone does think so, my endocrinologist IS willing to start me on Prednisone (even for a month) or another medication that reduces cortisol , to kind of "reset" the cortisol and bring it down - thus allowing for a more speedy recovery perhaps?

 

I hope this isn't all too confusing but any shed light would be much much appreciated. 

[gail]

Hello D,

Interesting subject to which I have no answer, but looking forward for Fishinghats answer.

He's sleeping but gets up early. Love.

[fishinghat]

Sorry, got to run but will be back this evening.

[fishinghat]

The high cortisol, especially in the morning, is common during most withdrawals. The high adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol, renin and prorenin are all common during withdrawal and are part of the corticosteroid response to stress. Not to worry about as the withdrawal decreases and the stress lessens these will slowly return to normal.

 

I am not aware of any effect that high cortisol has on the healing rate during withdrawal (but will check) but it does account for some of the symptoms. Trying to adjust your cortisol concentration is very risky during withdrawal as it invariably effects your hormone levels, adrenaline and other key chemicals in the body.

[fishinghat]

I found dozens of articles on high cortisol during withdrawal and many reflected that it returned to normal as withdrawal decreased. None mentioned any indication of it interfering with the healing process and none of the research tried any type of treatment of high cortisol during withdrawal. Sorry the isn't more info.

[fishinghat]

I did confirm a couple of things.

As stress increases acth and cortisol increases.

Acth is at its highest level between 6 and 8 AM and its lowest level between 8 and 10 PM (Some research varies a little on this).

Evening levels may be 1/2 of morning levels or even lower.

[DThiessen]

Okay no worries, thank you though! Ya what I plan to do is get another ACTH am blood test done as it has been approx 6 months of WD and see if it is eve slightly lower - if so awesome. If it is not, I may just wait it out even another few months and then re test again to see if it lowers. They tested for absolutely EVERYTHING that could cause this and found nothing so it is clearly my withdrawal. Ya I just wasn't sure if this "stress response" would make it harder for ones body to heal... what I will do for now is try to lower it on my w=own via small amounts of Whey Protein and an hour of deep breathing every day to see if I can curb atleast some of it. But before I do this I will get a new baseline blood test done to check it out. 

[DThiessen]

Yes they did tell me this too and it appears that by afternoon/evening my levels are damn near normal but maybe just slightly increased compared to a normal reading. So I guess atleast they come down! 

[DThiessen]

So I have been micro dosing at 2.5mg for 3 months now in attempt to get rid of some WD symptoms - I don't think it did anything but again who knows. My sleep may have slightly improved as well as some sensory stuff but that being said it could also be just that I am that much further along in my healing. As I said, I feel like I have waken up from y WD and there's just some faded things going off but are going. 

 

Regardless, should I proceed to taper down from this ridiculously small dose - it is a liquid concentrate and I feel literally like it's so small the drop hardly touched my tongue so I don' even know if it's done anything. But say it has, how should I taper down or quit this?

 

Thanks! 

[fishinghat]

That is a small dose and Zoloft doesn't have as bad a bite as Cymbalta BUT as a precaution I would drop that dose in half for a month to be sure there will be no issue. For a month because Zoloft has a long half life.

[DThiessen]

So I tried for the last 5 days going from 2.5mg to 1.9mg zoloft microdose and experienced all the WD symptoms come back. I am so shocked. Yuck. So then for the past few days up until today I went back up to 2.5mg microdose snd they're gone... woww. Talk about super sensitivity?
Also, I take.5 clonazepam every 10 days on a rough day.. will this cause any issues?

[DThiessen]

Also caved and booked an MRI for tomorrow at 915 because of the head and neck pain/tension/ super sensitivity to whatever may be happening in that region. I will fill you in. As it appears to be a WD effect in itself (serotonin seems to take is mostly away) its been 14 months and still lingering so I am thinking there may be a problem and my super sensitive brain right now is acting as of my head is having an aneurysm 20 times during the day.
Has anyone experienced brain zaps that were painful like severely painful? Because they almost feel like zapping brain but with extreme pain...

[fishinghat]

Any issue from the benzo will be slight and can be handled OK.

 

Very few members esperinced pain withg their zaps and I don't remember any that experienced bad pain.

[DThiessen]

Quick and random questions for ya:

Is St Johns Wort the only supplement that changes the shape of the synapses?

I remember reading somewhere that it did and that it functions much like an SSRI.

Tryptophan on the other hand - does this do that as well?

Which is easier to withdraw from if one wanted to try it or which poses the least risk with just trialing?

[fishinghat]

"Is St Johns Wort the only supplement that changes the shape of the synapses?

I remember reading somewhere that it did and that it functions much like an SSRI."

Both statements are correct. Dextromethorphan also acts as an ssri but I don't know in what way it acts on the receptors or if it changes the shapes of them or not.

To the best of my knowledge tryptophan does not effect the shape of the receptors. During withdrawal much of the tryptophan is converted to serotonin and that reacts with the serotonin receptors. The shape would not need to change in order to accommodate the serotonin. It does have a nasty withdrawal though.

There are a significant number of people that are allergic/sensitive to St. Wort, use small doses to begin with. There should be no significant risk of a serious side effect to tryptophan however I would suggest, once again to begin with a small dose and slowly work your way up in order to find the minimum dose that helps. High doses of either one can cause serotonin syndrome especially if still taking an antidepressant.

[DThiessen]

Okay so say I wanted to try St John's Wort, is this going to completely harm or wreck my withdrawal as I am 9 months in? Or is it fairly simple to even try for 2 weeks and then stop.... I guess how much of a risk is it to try - would it be like trying to start another SSRI at month 9 ?? As that is NOT what I am trying to do. I am simply trying to see if I can benefit from any even mild AD effects from the st Johns Wort without rearranging my already rearranged brain.. if that makes sense haha :/  

[fishinghat]

If you have been off for 9 months a very low dose may help. I just worry about you being one of those that may be sensitive to it (nausea, upset stomach, diarrhea etc.). It would exactly be like trying a very low dose of another ssri like Zoloft or Prozac. It is up to you though. It might help it might not. Flip a coin.

[DThiessen]

Okay... ya I think it is just too risky at this time. Thanks for that info!

[DThiessen]

My Tryptophan supplements are measured in tmg instead of mg... what does this mean.  How do I know how much I am taking?

[DThiessen]

Also, does taking a benzo with an SSRI decrease the effectiveness of the SSRI? Was reading somewhere that the benzo kind of lowers the amount of serotonin you are getting

[fishinghat]

You got me. The tmg is new to me. I tried looking it up every which way and could find nothing. What is the brand you are using?

 

It depends on the specific ssri and the benzo as to whether or not they would interfere with each other. It depends on what CYP enzymes are used by the body to break them down. If you have a specific set of ssri/benzos that you are concerned about let me know and I will look up the info.

[DThiessen]

Taking 0.25mg Klonopin a day with 10mg Sertraline

[DThiessen]

Also, I take 400mg SunTheanine a day - my functional med doctor said I could take up to 1400 a day and be fine... is this normal haha seems high

[invalidusername]

All evidence suggests that in significant doses (way more than ad hoc or periodic use) that there could be an impact on serotonin uptake, but nothing I think we need to be concerned about here.

[fishinghat]

https://www.research...Benzodiazepines
CYP3A4 metabolizes (breaks down) clonazepam.

https://onlinelibrar....2001.tb00188.x
Sertraline mildly inhibits the CYP2D6 isoform of the cytochrome P450 system but has little effect on CYP1A2, CYP3A3/4, CYP2C9, or CYP2C19.


So there should be little to no effect on each other.

[DThiessen]

Cool - awesome thanks for all the information! 

[fishinghat]

The 400 mg/day of Suntheanine is a normal dose. The highest doses I found mentioned in the medical journals were 800 and 900 mg per day for up to a week. I found no other mentions of anyone trying higher doses.

[DThiessen]

So if a person wants to go back on their AD after 9 months of being off, most WD symptoms gone, is it safe to go back on low and slow (microdose/custom up to regular dose slowly) as I know within the 2 yr time frame the body still super sensitive to it

[fishinghat]

You hit on the key DT. After 2 years there should be no issues but the sooner you go back on the more likely it will not work well and/or you have more side effects.

 

Are you considering going back on an AD again?

[DThiessen]

I am... because of the 24/7 migraines/headches for 14 months now which have bed ridden me. This is no life to live. L-Theanine worked for a few months, then Whey Protein. But everything stops working I see unless it is an SSRI which keeps that steady state. I feel bad..