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#61 fishinghat

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 11:51 AM

I did not see any concern with the dose on the R-Alpha Lipoic Acid - 600mg.

 

I did find the following info on taking it with alcohol consumptions.

 

 
In its reduced form, alpha-lipoic acid is a powerful, sulphur-based antioxidant. It can interact with acetaldehyde in liver cells. The liver metabolises large amounts of ingested alcohol and acetaldehyde levels can be relatively high in liver cells. Acetaldehyde can bind to reduced lipoamide, the active factor in alpha-lipoic acid, rendering it harmless. For this effect to take place, alpha-lipoic acid must be absorbed several hours before and after alcohol consumption.
 
There were very few studies on the contraindications in using ALA. However, due to the adverse effects of ALA on animals and due to ALA's physiological effects, one should consult with a doctor before taking it if they have the following conditions:
 
Liver disease
Consumption of large amounts of alcohol
Diabetic (ALA is known to lower blood's sugar) 
A thyroid disorder, or
A thiamine deficiency 
 
Have you or your dr every considered that you might have alcohol induced neuropathy. Not uncommon.

#62 jc619

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 12:06 PM

Thanks Fishinghat,

 

My last capsule was Thursday night and I think I'm doing OK. The only thing I'm really experiencing so far is a bit more pain in my feet and hands. That could be the duloxetine, but I've also stopped taking all my supplements (apart from R-Alpha Lipoid Acid and L-Thiamine) for now until we can work out what is good/bad to take.

 

It would be awesome if we can work out a way to help other folks who are on duloxetine for peripheral neuropathy to lessen withdrawal, and potentially avoid having to use similar meds in the future.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

JC619.


#63 jc619

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 01:15 PM

Hi again Fishinghat,

 

I think we must have posted the last reply at the same time so crossed-over. 

 

The neuropathy isn't alcohol related. I only drink alcohol very occasionally (and have stopped totally since all this began).

 

I do have a thyroid disorder though, I have an underachieve thyroid. When I first developed tingling I thought this might be a likely cause. Doctors take very little interest in this. My levels were out when I took a private test, so I've upped my medicine (Levothyroxine) to counter that. It'll take a while (maybe 6 months) to see if this has been a cause of my problems however, and my doctors insist it is much more likely to be diabetes related.

 

I talked to people on a thyroid forum about Alpha Lipoid Acid's interaction with the thyroid and thyroid medicine as I found there may be a problem there, and the consensus was that it's OK as long as the two medicines are spaced out away from each other. Many believe for underactive thyroid r-ALA is good for you.

 

JC619.


#64 fishinghat

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 01:18 PM

I will see if I can find something in the medical journal articles on that subject. You are right on the 6 month time factor as well. I will let you know what I find.


#65 invalidusername

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 03:19 PM

Well done Hat... I would help this weekend, but I have got a backlog of stuff to get done for the University. Great that we can share the load - appreciate it.

 

JC - hang in there my friend. The body will always sort itself out in the end. No-one had this nonsense back in the BC days.... dammit, we can't even say this now for being slandered!! LOL


#66 fishinghat

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Posted 15 April 2023 - 04:51 PM

Well there is certainly a very small amount of information relating to alpha-lipoic acid and its effects on the thyroid except for burning mouth disease. What I did find was not alarming and is given below. I see no issues with the dosage of 600mg. If you have any questions about these publications let me know.

 

 

 
Effect of alpha-lipoic acid on the peripheral conversion of thyroxine to triiodothyronine and on serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels
J Segermann 1, A Hotze, H Ulrich, G S Rao
Abstract
The influence of alpha-lipoic acid (LA, thioctic acid, CAS 62-46-4) on thyroid hormone metabolism and serum lipid-, protein- and glucose levels was investigated. In the first setup of experiments administration of LA together with thyroxine (T4) for 9 days suppressed the T4 induced increase of T3 generation by 56%. This suppression was similar to that affected by 6-propylthiouracil (54%). LA or T4 alone did not affect the cholesterol level, but together they led to a reduction. LA decreased the triglyceride level by 45%; the decrease induced by T4 or LA plus T4 was not significant. Total protein and albumin levels decreased by LA plus T4 treatment when compared to the LA control. The slight increase in glucose level by LA or T4 alone was not observed when they were administered together. In the second setup of experiments the administration of T4 for 22 days increased the serum T3 level 3-fold. When LA was combined with T4 and the treatment continued, the T3 production decreased by 22%. T4 reduced cholesterol level by 30%, and LA plus T4 further reduced it by 47%. The triglycerides were not affected. A moderate decrease in total protein was observed after treatment with T4 plus LA; T4 and LA plus T4 decreased the albumin level. The decrease in serum glucose by T4 recovers by LA treatment. These results demonstrate that LA interferes with the production of T3 from T4 when it is co-administered with T4. The elevated level of T3, after T4 administration, is reduced by treatment with LA.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
 
 
Research on the protective effects of antioxidants on metabolic syndrome induced by thyroid dysfunction
Y Chen 1, Z Zhou, X-X Li, T Wang
Abstract
Objective: This paper researches on the protective effects of antioxidants on metabolic syndrome induced by thyroid dysfunction. While the role of Lipoic acid (LA), Resveratrol ® and Quercetin (Q) are recognized, the mechanisms for their ameliorative effects are partially understood. Therefore, the objective of this study was to determine the prevalence of MS among university workers and to examine the relationship with thyroid function and mechanisms for protective effects of LA, Resveratrol and Quercetin on the heart, kidneys and lungs.
 
Subjects and methods: In the cross-sectional study, a total of 2273 university workers (1198 males and 1075 females) aged 22-60 participated. Anthropometric measurements (weight and height), blood pressure, fasting plasma glucose (FPG), lipids, liver and kidney function tests were carried out, thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH), free thyroxine (FT4), free triiodothyronine (FT3), total antioxidant capacity (T-AOC), lipid peroxidation products, malondialdehyde (MDA), advanced oxidation protein products (AOPP) and dityrosine levels were measured.
 
Results: A further evaluation of oxidative stress markers in subclinical hypothyroidism (SCH) compared with normal thyroid function showed the differences. Among middle-aged men with SCH (n = 467), MDA concentrations (8.11 ± 1.39 nmol/ml) were significantly higher euthyroid controls (7.34 ± 1.31 nmol/ml; n = 190) while AOPP, dityrosine and T-AOC levels were not different.
 
Conclusions: It was demonstrated that prevalence of MS components was high. Targeting thyroid hormone restoration, inhibition of ACE and GSK3β via PI3K/AKT signaling pathway using LA, Resveratrol and Quercetin are potential novel therapeutic approaches for developing pharmaceuticals that could make significance in MS treatment.

#67 jc619

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Posted 16 April 2023 - 04:21 AM

Thanks Fishinghat,

 

Great to know. As I mentioned, R-Alpha Lipoid Acid and L-Theanine are the only 2 I'm taking now. 

 

I'm keen to see what else I'm able to take, or what else I should take. 2 reasons, first to control/minimise the pain as I come off duloxetine. And secondly because I'm early in my peripheral neuropathy journey I'm hopeful that I'm able to find something to control pain, or even better halt progression going forward. Ideally that would mean I don't have to reach for anxiety meds to control pain in the future, or at least not yet. My story is that I have kids, and the prospect of not being able to do things I've always done things isn't an easy one. 

 

There seems to be a list of medicines that are separately recognised as being 'may help nerve pain/regeneration'. Any help about which I could/should be taking will be invaluable.

 

And a weaning update. Since I stopped taking my last duloxetine on Thursday, it's looking Ok so far. Still early days though. Pain hasn't been unbearable. And for the first time in 3 weeks I've managed to sleep properly - I was only getting about 2-3 hours a night before so it looks like the tablets were really stopping me sleeping. I've now had 3 nights where I've slept through the night and even had a lie in!

 

Thanks again!

 

JC619.


#68 fishinghat

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Posted 16 April 2023 - 08:26 AM

Sleep is so important. That is great news!!!

 

More info to follow today....


#69 fishinghat

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Posted 16 April 2023 - 04:50 PM

I have been most impressed by what I read on this compound and neuropathic pain. There are far more articles than the ones referenced below but these are one that you might want to read over, especially the fifth one. there are some potential side effects and they are referenced below. There have been no studies on drug interactions. I found one negative results study (see last reference). It is interesting to note that this is the longest study performed using Benfotiamine for neuropathy (24 months) and they found no benefit. This might suggest that the positive benefits in the shorter studies (usually 12 to 16 weeks) may only be temporary.
 
A detailed review of medical articles relating to Benfotiamine.
"Among the many synthetic lipophilic derivatives of thiamine, benfotiamine (BFT) is regarded as the first choice based on its safety and clinical efficacy data. "
 
Therapeutic potential of vitamin B1 derivative benfotiamine from diabetes to COVID-19
 
Neuroprotective Effects of Thiamine and Precursors with Higher Bioavailability: Focus on Benfotiamine and Dibenzoylthiamine
 
The multifaceted therapeutic potential of benfotiamine
Special emphasis on its potential to treat polyneuropathy.
 
Screening, diagnosis and management of diabetic sensorimotor polyneuropathy in clinical practice: International expert consensus recommendations
[This is an overview of all treatments for neuropathy. I found it to be very thorough and strongly recommend your reading it. There is information in there about Cymbalta use as well.]
 
Current concepts in the management of diabetic polyneuropathy
 
Benfotiamine in the treatment of diabetic polyneuropathy--a three-week randomized, controlled pilot study (BEDIP study)
"This pilot investigation (BEDIP Study) has confirmed the results of two earlier randomized controlled trials and has provided further evidence for the beneficial effects of benfotiamine in patients with diabetic neuropathy." [200 mg/day]
 
Side effects
A safety and tolerability study reported that the rate of adverse effects for short-term benfotiamine use in young, healthy volunteers was similar to that for placebo.
 
 The maximum doses studied were 1,200 mg daily for up to ten days. Side effects reported with benfotiamine included:
 
Increased liver enzymes
Increased blood pressure
Sinus bradycardia, or slow heart rate
Increased pulse rate
Increased white blood cell (WBC) count
Proteinuria
 
The Effects of Long-Term Oral Benfotiamine Supplementation on Peripheral Nerve Function and Inflammatory Markers in Patients With Type 1 Diabetes
"Our findings suggest that high-dose benfotiamine (300 mg/day) supplementation over 24 months has no significant effects upon peripheral nerve function or soluble markers of inflammation in patients with type 1 diabetes."

#70 jc619

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Posted 16 April 2023 - 07:04 PM

Hi Fishinghat,

 

That's amazing, thanks loads. I'll have agood look through tomorrow. On the surface it looks like we're saying Benfotiamine could be useful then, fingers crossed!

 

JC619.


#71 fishinghat

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 08:03 AM

Yes, a positive sign of good things, especially that it is already approved by many countries for use on neuropathy.

 

More to follow later.


#72 fishinghat

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 02:05 PM

Methylcobalamin 
 
The recommended daily amount of vitamin B-12 for adults is 2.4 micrograms.
The body is very inefficient in absorbing Methylcobalamin and this level of dosage is not an issue by oral or intramuscular injection HOWEVER the absorption of Methylcobalamin by sublingual spray has not been studied.
 
I found NO research into the use of sublingual spray of Methylcobalamin 
The typical application is oral tablets, intramuscular or nasal spray. 
 
High doses of vitamin B-12, such as those used to treat a deficiency, might cause:
Headache
Nausea and vomiting
Diarrhea
Fatigue or weakness
Tingling sensation in hands and feet
 
Interactions
Proton pump inhibitors. Taking omeprazole (Prilosec), lansoprazole (Prevacid) or other stomach acid-reducing drugs might decrease your body's ability to absorb vitamin B-12.
 
Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) supplements. Taking vitamin B-12 with vitamin C might reduce the available amount of vitamin B-12 in your body. To avoid this interaction, take vitamin C two or more hours after taking a vitamin B-12 supplement.
 
This a detailed review of the safety of Methylcobalamin by the FDA.
"No significant adverse event reports from all available literature, worldwide
• “Adverse events reported with methylcobalamin use are infrequent and nonserious.” – FDA"
 
National Institute of Health
Sublingual or nasal routes are expensive and inadequately studied; hence these routes cannot be recommended.
Common adverse effects are fever, itching or rash, tingling or numbness of joint, shortness of breath, rapid weight gain, polycythemia, hypokalemia, congestive heart failure, pulmonary edema, and vascular thrombosis. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#73 fishinghat

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 02:27 PM

JC, I don't know if you ever saw this information in the ebook or not.

 

Hypothyroidism. It is a common side effect of the use of ssri/snri antidepressants. The medicine inserts that come with antidepressants nearly always warn of the risk of developing hypothyroidism and/or liver damage. These chemicals (medicines) are often suppressive to the function of these tissues. It is standard procedure that a psychiatrist will stop the use of ssri/snri for 3 months to allow the thyroid to recover (which it almost always does unless actual damage is done to the tissue). At that point a different ssri/snri will be used to see if it can be used without effect on the thyroid. Zoloft is the one that appears to have the best record. It is important to note that it is essential to consider any radiological testing that may have been done around the same time. It has been shown that around 30% of the abdominal cat scans use enough contrast iodine to produce hypothyroidism. It is usually asymptomatic and does return to normal within a 6 to 9 month period. A simple 24 hour urine sample can show if iodine toxicity (from cat scans/radiation imaging) is the source of the hypothyroidism.
 
FH - NO good endocrinologist would put you on thyroid medicine immediately after blood tests suggesting hypothyroidism unless you are very symptomatic and in despite need for help. I was diagnosed with HypoT after being on Cymbalta. My primary care dr said I would have to be on thyroid medicine for life. I went to my endocrinologist and he threw a fit. I was informed, but was already aware, that many conditions can causes hypoT blood test results including the radiation, aspirin usage and some of the other nsaids, many other medicines, as well as infections. All clear when the causative agent is removed. Even a seafood diet and/or heavy iodine salt usage can cause this.
 
List of AD that can cause thyroid issues.
 
Hypothyroidism and depression information.
 
Antidepressants which effect thyroid levels
reboxetine - TSH reduced and T4 increased.
sertraline - TSH increased and T4 reduced.
 
sertraline and fluoxetine showed reductions in TSH,T3 and T4 levels.
 
Fluoxetine decreased T3 and T4, increased TSH
 
Do not treat with thyroid hormones if hypothyroidism is asymptomatic.
These are often accompanied by findings such as low blood pressure, low blood glucose, low sodium, high potassium,  and high calcium.
As a matter of fact all of these parameters were normal for me therefore it is unlikely it is due to sertraline.
Reference Range(s) 
70-500 µg/24 h
93-1,125 mcg/specimen
Iodine defeciency - less than 50 μg/L 
Table 2. Median Population Urinary Iodine Values and Iodine Nutrition
MEDIAN URINARY IODINE CONCENTRATION (μg/L) CORRESPONDING IODINE INTAKE (μg/day) IODINE NUTRITION 
<20 <30 Severe deficiency
20-49 30-74 Moderate deficiency
50-99 75-149 Mild deficiency
100-199 150-299 Optimal
200-299 300-449 More than adequate
>299 >449 Possible excess
[From WHO, UNICEF and ICCIDD 2001 Assessment of the Iodine Deficiency Disorders and monitoring their elimination. A guide for programme managers. WHO publ., Geneva. WHO/NHD/01.1]
1 Microgram per liter [µg/l]
 
= 0.000 1 Milligram per deciliter [mg/dl]
 
 
Escitalopram-induced subclinical hypothyroidism. A case report.
 
Reversible escitalopram-induced hypothyroidism.
 
Reversible paroxetine-induced symptomatic hypothyroidism.
 
Depressed patients should be screened for hypothyroidism. In hypothyroid patients, depression may be more responsive to a replacement regimen that includes T3 rather than T4 alone. Therefore, inclusion of T3 in the treatment regimen may be warranted after adequate trial with T4 alone.
 
Effects of long term treatment with sertraline (Zoloft) simulating hypothyroidism in an adolescent.
And many more articles.
 
ssri/snri replacement is a viable option.
 
Side effects
"Endocrine system—Rare: goiter, hyperthyroidism, hypothyroidism, thyroid nodule, thyroiditis."
 
The same is mentioned in the section on 'adverse reactions' in the drug insert for Effexor.
 
 
65,121 people reported to have side effects when taking Effexor.
Among them, 420 people (0.64%) have Hypothyroidism
 
An FDA supported website. 
84,701 people reported to have side effects when taking Cymbalta.
Among them, 292 people (0.34%) have Hypothyroidism
 
Drug insert. (Cymbalta)
Endocrine Disorders — Infrequent: hypothyroidism. 

#74 jc619

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 03:59 PM

Thanks Fishinghat, amazing again.

 

Sooooo, it looks like B12 is a no-no. I had been taking B12 for a while as it's often recommended for diabetics. However, recent blood tests results show what looks like quite a high level of B12. I hadn't realised that too much B12 can actually cause tingling - how very interesting, another possible cause, so goodbye B12!

 

And it looks like duloxetine doesn't play nicely with hypothyroidism. So another good reason to stop using it/another good reason to not put me on it in the first place. 

 

4 days duloxetine-free now, and so-far-so-good. Not in noticeably more pain. Not experienced much in terms of side-effects, so haven't had the need for 10-bead emergency capsules. Tinnitus still there, but I have noticed that occasionally it gets quite for a while, so finger crossed on that one. Tomorrow is day 5 - big day!

 

JC619


#75 fishinghat

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 05:05 PM

"And it looks like duloxetine doesn't play nicely with hypothyroidism. So another good reason to stop using it/another good reason to not put me on it in the first place."

 

You are exactly right. Never should have been placed on it in the first place. 

 

If I may ask, what was your original TSH, t3 and t4 when they thought you had developed hypothyroidism? How long did they wait before they retested you?

 

By the way, when you come off Cymbalta it will take 3 to 4 months for the thyroid to stabilize from any effect that the Cymbalta had on the thyroid.


#76 fishinghat

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Posted 17 April 2023 - 05:13 PM

I see no problem with the folate/folic acid dosage.

 

More tomorrow.


#77 jc619

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 04:12 AM

Hi Fishinghat,

 

I had some private thyroid tests done when all this started:

 

TSH level: Your result is 2.39 mu/L (normal range 0.27 - 4.2 mU/L)
FT3 level: Your result is 4.8 pmol/L (normal range 3.1 - 6.8 pmol/L)
FT4 level: Your result is 19.4 pmol/L (normal range 12 - 22 pmol/L)
 
I'm also a member of a really good Thyroid forum. On the surface those results look OK. But from what I'm told the results would be in-range for a 'normal' person (ie. not hypo-thyroid). But when you are being treated for hypothyroid, you would target a TSH level closer to 1.0. Even though other levels are in-range, the amount that people actually need can often be out-of-range - everyone is different. The TSH level really is what tells you your body is crying out for more thyroid hormone, especially if this goes hand-in-hand with symptoms.
 
Unfortunately my doctor doeasn't see it that way. In fact, when I went to see him to ask him to up my Levothyroxine, he had some previous results where TSH level was even higher at 4.2 (range 0.4-5.33). Easy job, I thought. But his view frustratingly was that as all results are in-range then nothing needs to be changed. By all accounts this isn't uncommon as general doctors in the UK aren't really specialists in thyroid, so go with the tactic that 'in-range is in-range. 
 
My hypo-thyroidism has become a bone of contention for me recently. It was discovered as part of my regular diabetic tests about 6 years ago. But as I'm diabetic it's taken a back-seat and isn't even mentioned. No-one has ever really explained it to me, and it certainly hasn't been actively managed. It sounds daft, but I've only recently realised how serious it actually is. I'm still on the same low 'starter' dose of Levothyroxine of 50mg. I'm told this would be fine... if I weighed 4 stones (I weight 13 stones!) Doctors do blood tests once per year, and have only changed my medicine once, at the very beginning. And when they did, they haven't followed it up 8 weeks later with another test to see any changes - they just do another test a year later. I understand now that as a diabetic it's 90% likley to be Hashimoto's (auto-immune), although that has never even been tested. And if it is, then I would expect to progress to needing total thyroid hormone replacement eventually. The way it is being done currently leaves me always behind the curve - with my doctor only changing anything once I have fallen way out of range for a 'normal' person. I feel I've been suffering from symptoms such as tiredness, dry skin, puffy eyes, continuous joint pain etc for years despite being in my 40s and active, and now the tingling and even my tinnitus 'could' be to do with it as well.
 
The doctor actually said to me a few weeks ago you never pay any attention to symptoms for hypothyroid as they are vague, you just go 100% on the tests. That is actually the opposite to what specialist thyroid doctors say - symptoms are everything because everyone has different 'normal' values. And then he failed to respond properly to the test. Frustrating! I'm seeing an endocronolgist in a month's time so will hope to have a better conversation. On the forums the consensus was that I should up the medicine myself in the meantime as my results so off-kilter alongside symptoms, so I have followed everyone's advice and nudged doses up ever-so-slightly because I feel I'm in a race against time if this is a contributory factor to my tingling/pain. I appreciate this may be a controversial move, but my only alternative is to wait another year until I have my yearly tests again.

#78 fishinghat

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 07:45 AM

Wow, very illuminating.

 

I have quite a background in thyroid function. Here are some of the things I learned in college as well as in my experiences with myself, other family members, and others as well as from doctors.

 

1) A simple meal of certain foods can cause t3, t4 and/or TSH to go out of normal range. 

 

2) Thyroid values once out of range can take 4 weeks or more to stabilize.

 

3) Thyroid medicine should never be given to a person unless they demonstrate out of range values for at least 4 weeks and most drs say 6 weeks. 

 

4) Once on thyroid medication it is very difficult to come off of it. It should NEVER be started until an iodine profile is completed (24 hour urine iodine sample).

 

5) Contrast cat scans use enough iodine tracer to cause out of range thyroid values for up to 6 months or more.

 

6) Iodine deficiency/toxicity is a rapidly increasing phenomenon. This is due to decreasing amounts of seafood/kelp ingestion worldwide as well as an increase in contrast cat scan imaging.

 

My TSH, t3 and t4 have a long history of fluctuating and many GPs wanted to immediately put me on thyroid medication. My endocrinologists would strongly urge me to retest after 4 to 6 weeks and it would always be normal again. I did a series of cat scans back in the 2012/2013 time frame and my endocrinologist did a 24 urine iodine test and it was hugely elevated. It eventually came down (9 months). Later my TSH started going higher and higher and t3 and t4 went lower and lower (all out of range). Another 24 urine iodine test showed I was iodine deficient. I started on an iodine supplement and have had excellent values ever since. During this whole time I was subclinical (no symptoms). What symptoms were you exhibiting during this time?

 

You should also be aware that as you age TSH normally drifts upward and slightly out of range while t3 and t4 will drift slightly downward.

 

In a minute I will post some of my information on my case for you to look over. It includes medical research on the issue as well. 

 

In this matter I would tend to agree with the doctors. A single thyroid function test should never be used to make these types of long-term decisions.

 

Look over my info and we can discuss this more.


#79 fishinghat

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 08:25 AM

Iodine Excess
 
 
1) Iodine excess may happen if you have been exposed to high doses of radiographic contact dyes. The US Food and Nutrition offices list this iodine excess as anything over 1,100  µg/L/24 hr urine test while the World Health Organization says anything over 1,000 µg/L/24 urine test. Iodine toxicity is considered by WHO as anything over 1,700 mcg/test which has some serious health risks including autoimmune hypothyroidism.
 
 
The following information applies to Hypaque, MD 76R, MD Gastroview, Gastrografin and Urografin and is taken from their package inserts for both their cat scan and enema products.
 
"Drug/Laboratory Test Interactions
 
Thyroid Function Tests 
The results of protein bound iodine (PBI) and radioactive iodine uptake studies, which depend on iodine estimations, will not accurately reflect thyroid function for six months, and possibly as long as one year, following the administration of diagnostic enteral radiopaque media.
 
Thyroid function tests, if indicated, generally should be performed prior to the administration of any iodinated agent. However, thyroid function can be evaluated after use of these agents by using T3 resin uptake and total or free thyroxine (T4) assays which are not dependent on iodine estimations."
 
2) Iodine induced hypothyroidism  The medical literature well documents that high intake of iodine causes elevated TSH and lowered T3 and T4 (Wolff-Chaikoff effect, references available). 
 
 Research shows a 10 to 28% occurrence of hypothyroidism from a single iodine contrast test. (see below)
Source Reference: Pearce EN "Iodine-induced thyroid dysfunction: Evaluating the risks of iodinated contrast medium "Arch Intern Med 2012; 172(2): 159-161.  
Source Reference: Rhee CM, et al "Association between iodinated contrast media exposure and incident hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism" Arch Intern Med 2012; 172(2): 153-159.
 
3) Amount of estimated iodine still left in me at May 29th urine iodine test.
Most contrasts contain 300 to 370 mg of iodine per ml.
 
Contrast CT scan - Dec 29th/2014 - My urine test was 149 days after my cat scan. At a 64 day excretion half-life I would still have about 21% of the iodine left in me. Approximately 6.1 grams. 
 
In my case:
Contrast CT scan - Dec 29th/2014 - Used 100 ml of Isovue 370 which is composed of 370 mg/ml. A 100 ml dose calculates to 37 grams iodine. Which is the same as the daily recommended intake (150 micrograms/day) for 250,000 days (685 years).
 
My 24 hour urine iodine was 1238 on May 29th/2015 and had dropped to 187 by Nov. 19th of 2015.
 
Note
With iodine contrast barium enemas the serum iodine increases 10 to 200 times beginning baseline levels.
 
Normal Serum Iodine
52-109 µg/L
This would then elevate to 520 to 20,000 µg/L from a single iodine/barium enema.
 
4) Drugs used for cat scan and iodine enemas:
 
Hypaque
(Diatrizoate Sodium, USP) is sodium 3,5-diacetamido-2, 4, 6-triiodobenzoate (C11H8I3N2NaO4)
Used in enemas and oral. Enema, from 500 mL to 1000 mL of a 15 to 25 percent solution. Which provides 9 to 25 grams of iodine. 
 
MD 76R
Cat scan contrast media. Each mL contains approximately and 370 mg of organically bound iodine. Fifty to 100 ml used which supplies about 20 to 40 grams of iodine.
 
MD Gastroview
(Diatrizoate Meglumine and Diatrizoate Sodium Solution)
Used in enemas and orally. Each mL contains approximately 367 mg organically bound iodine. When used as an enema, the suggested dilution for adults is 240 mL (88 g iodine) in 1,000 mL of tap water. 
 
Gastrografin
(Diatrizoate Meglumine and Diatrizoate Sodium Solution)
Used in enemas and orally.. Each mL contains approximately 367 mg organically bound iodine. When used as an enema, the suggested dilution for adults is 240 mL (88 g iodine) in 1,000 mL of tap water. 
 
Urografin
Sodium amidotrizoate and meglumine amidotrizoate in a proportion of 10:66 in aqueous solution (formed from amidotrizoic acid or diatrizoic acid:3,5-bis-acetamido-2,4,6-triiodobenzoic acid). 
Used in cat scans. Each mL contains approximately 370 mg organically bound iodine. Dosage for adults is 50 ml or more. This provides a minimum of 20 grams of iodine.
 
The amount of iodine given to a patient is from 9 to 88 grams per contrast imaging. This is 90,000 to 880,000 times the RDA.
Iodine RDA - 120 µg/day - Adult Male
 
5) Elimination half-life 
 
The biological removal half-life of radioactive iodine in the body is a 50% elimination every 64 to 80 days.
 
Average 57 days with a range of 11 to 4000 days.
 
 
60 days to return to normal (21 patients)
 
 
6) Misc.
 
Note - The Wolff–Chaikoff effect is a presumed reduction in thyroid hormone levels caused by ingestion of a large amount of iodine.
 
 FYI; In each of these studies it was noted that in a small percentage of participants 'escape' from the Wolff-Chaikoff effect did not occur and presented as a chronic condition, especially noted in the elderly.
 
Repetitive contrast media exposure in a short period of time eliminates the 'escape' from the Wolff-Chaikoff effect. Resultant hypothyroidism may last for years.  Numerous references included.
 
Iodine excess (>1,000 micrograms/day, urine test) eliminates the 'escape' from the Wolff-Chaikoff effect. Resultant hypothyroidism may last for years. 
 
 
The estimated glomerular filtration rate (eGFR) should be no lower than 30 mL/min in patients receiving iodinated contrast, and discretion should be used in patients with eGFR less 45 mL/min
 
UC San Francisco Guidelines on the Administration of Intravenous Iodinated Contrast Media
Mine runs 70 to 93.
 
Special Note
 
According to records from Litton and Gidding (obtained from office manager and with assistance Dr Kevin Baehl  I recieved approximately 250 to 300 grams of iodide 123 in my 3 tests from Dec. 29th 2014 to March 24th 2015. A total of 85 days. 

#80 fishinghat

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 08:28 AM

Have you had a 24 hour urine iodine test? Do you eat a lot of seafood or say sushi with the dry seaweed wrap?


#81 jc619

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 08:35 AM

Hi Fishinghat,

 

No, I've never had that type of test. Your doctor seems much more engaged than mine! I even had to go private for my thyroid tests! Had he even bothered to tell me the results from last October, that would have been nice.

 

In all honesty, I'm confident that I am hypo-thyroid. I've had consistent results that back it up, and I don't eat lots of seafood, etc or had exposure to iodine. And the symptoms all make sense to me! I think if the doctors folowed up blood tests then I woudn't feel so left in the dark. But the forum I'm a member of is full of people who know so much more than my doctor.

 

Of the other supplements, do you have any feelings on L-Citrulline and Acetyle-L-carnitine?


#82 fishinghat

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 11:14 AM

"I don't eat lots of seafood, etc or had exposure to iodine."

 

This comment makes me concerned about iodine deficiency which is a common cause of hypothyroidism. I would suggest taking a simple 24 hour urine iodine just eliminate this as the source. 

 

By the way, if my drs won't work with me on an issue I fire them and get a new dr. Been done many times. In the UK I know this is almost impossible due to the nationalized medical program.

 

I will add L-Citrulline and Acetyle-L-carnitine to my list to investigate.


#83 jc619

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 11:59 AM

Hi Fishinghat,

 

Looking at the list of foods that contain iodine, I do actually eat quite a bit of some of them. Dairy product and eggs certainly. And i am impartial to a Tuna sandwich (which for some reason I don't consider sea-food - go figure!). And I'm British, so I'm not a stranger to Cod and Chips. 

 

:)

 

Totally take your point about doctors as well. Our health service has always been excellent, second to none. But over the past 13 years the current govt has under-funded it and it's looking quite broken post-Covid. It's a crying shame. That's why I'm goin to find a thyroid specialist myself. 


#84 fishinghat

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Posted 18 April 2023 - 02:03 PM

You would probably be alright on iodine then. Do you use iodized salt when you cook as well?


#85 jc619

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 02:37 AM

Hi guys,

 

A quick update. It's now been 5 days since I last took a capsule at all. All seems to be going OK at the moment, no major withdrawal symptoms so far (a few minor ones though). Fingers crossed.

 

Am I right that I might get something over the next 5 days, but if I'm OK then I'm all good?

 

Thanks,

 

JC619.


#86 fishinghat

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 07:34 AM

"Am I right that I might get something over the next 5 days, but if I'm OK then I'm all good?'

 

i would agree with that. I can also say I am very optimistic right now that things will go well. 


#87 fishinghat

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Posted 19 April 2023 - 03:28 PM

Evening primrose oil 
 
"Evening primrose oil (Oenothera biennis) is a commonly used alternative therapy and a rich source of omega-6 essential fatty acids. Evening primrose oil is generally well tolerated, with reported minor adverse effects, including gastrointestinal upset and headaches. "
 
 This oil contains mainly aliphatic alcohols, fatty acids, sterols, and polyphenols. Evening primrose oil (EPO) is extremely high in linoleic acid (LA) (70⁻74%) and γ-linolenic acid (GLA) (8⁻10%), which may contribute to the proper functioning of human tissues because they are precursors of anti-inflammatory eicosanoids. EPO supplementation results in an increase in plasma levels of γ-linolenic acid and its metabolite dihomo-γ-linolenic acid (DGLA). 
 
Severe Thrombocytopenia Associated With Black Seed Oil and Evening Primrose Oil
We report the case of a 69-year-old female who developed an acute thrombocytopenia with greater than 90% decrease from her baseline value. The patient was taking black seed oil and evening primrose oil daily for approximately one month. A literature review revealed that black seed oil contains thymoquinone, which is a compound related to quinine. Evening primrose oil is also known to reduce platelet aggregation and has anti-thrombotic properties. We believe the patient’s thrombocytopenia was caused by a consumptive coagulopathy due to the formation of multiple thrombi and exacerbated by the use of herbal supplements, namely black seed and evening primrose oil.
 
Note -Evening primrose oil interfering with blood clotting was further noted in the following research...
 
Evening primrose oil supplementation increases citraturia and decreases other urinary risk factors for calcium oxalate urolithiasis
To our knowledge increased citraturia has not been previously reported for any essential fatty acid. We hypothesize that evening primrose oil inhibits lipogenesis, thereby decreasing citrate consumption. For the decrease in oxaluria we suggest that evening primrose oil alters membrane fatty acid composition, thereby inhibiting the modulation of protein kinases that lead to hyperoxaluria. In regard to decreased calciuria we suggest that evening primrose oil modulates delta-5 and/or delta-6-desaturase, thereby inhibiting the production of arachidonic acid and prostaglandin E2, which influence calciuria. The different response in the 2 groups with respect to oxaluria confirms previously reported differences in sensitivity toward supplemental ingestion. Data suggest that evening primrose oil supplementation should be investigated as a possible conservative treatment for calcium oxalate urolithiasis.
 
Other treatment modalities such as the use of alpha-lipoic acid as an antioxidant and evening primrose oil through increased PGE1 synthesis have also been trialled with evidence of improvement in neuropathic pain. 
 
Our search found agents that might improve symptoms of neuropathy (eg, evening primrose oil, alpha-lipoic acid, capsaicin) without affecting glucose control. Patients using these products need to be informed of potential drug interactions and side effects.
 
Note - There are a large number of studies in rats using antibiotics to induce diabetic neuropathy but few studies in humans. 
 
Constituents of Ginkgo biloba (ginkgolic acids I and II), kava (desmethoxyyangonin, dihydromethysticin, and methysticin), garlic (allicin), evening primrose oil (cis-linoleic acid), and St. John's wort (hyperforin and quercetin) significantly inhibited one or more of the cDNA human P450 isoforms at concentrations of less than 10 uM. 
 
Note - Specifically the CYP 450 3A4, which processes medication and food in the liver. By inhibiting this enzyme evening primrose oil would interfere with the majority of medications keeping them from being processed in the Liver and therefore building up in the body.
 
Mayo Clinic
Cytochrome P450 3A4 (CYP3A4) substrates. Use evening primrose cautiously if you're taking a drug affected by these enzymes.
 
Note -
Drugs.com lists 255 drugs that evening primrose oil interacts with (including Cymbalta).
As noted above evening primrose oil interfers with platelets and therefore clotting of blood.
No dosages or toxicity studies have been performed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#88 jc619

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Posted 20 April 2023 - 03:26 AM

Thanks Fishinghat,

 

Extensive as always! I'll look through today. At a glance, it looks like Evening Primrose Oil is a bit of a mixed bag - some saying good and some saying bad?

 

JC619.


#89 fishinghat

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Posted 20 April 2023 - 07:49 AM

Evening Primrose Oil is a mixed bag. The interference with blood clotting is probably not an issue nut you certainly would want toi stop it before any surgeries. It would increase the risk of serious blood loss during any severe trauma also. Perhaps the biggest concern would be the interference with the proper clearance of meds from the body by the liver. I don't know how many meds you take that are handled by the CYP 3A4 enzyme but if you decide to try this oil we can take a quick look at your meds you are taking and go from there.


#90 jc619

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Posted 20 April 2023 - 10:32 AM

Hi Fishinghat,

 

I just take NovoRapid and Tresiba insulin as I'm T1 diabetic, Levothyroxine for thyroid, and well as the supplements I'm trying to work out for neuropathy.

 

I was originally on Atorvastatin, but it comes with another strange doctor story. I had my standard diabetic blood tests, and the doctor rang me to say I had 'slightly' high cholestorol. He then asked me to decide if I wanted to go on statins. Not being a doctor I told him that I would if he thought I should do, and so he put me onto them. As the conversation was coming to an end he muttered something about "actually it's only slightly high, and your ratios are actually OK". But still put me on them anyway.

 

Since all this started, I've read that people taking statins you are somthing like 14 times more likely to develop neuropathy. I've read stories on forums where stopping statin use has coincided with tingling, etc getting better. So as my ratios were OK, I've decided to stop taking them entirely for now and eat healthier to give me a chance to try and see some improvements. If my cholesterol levels go bad then I'll go back on them later on, but I'm not convinced they will (or ever were).

 

JC619.





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