401 replies to this topic

[thismoment]

Xanazul

 

Good Morning!! (Good evening to you).

 

I see what you are saying about the quote, but still some questions emerge: 

 

1. If the future of which she speaks is not completely dominated and dictated by the past, where on the timeline does that new implied partial control come from, and how is the that new control created and applied?

 

2. Where does the right come from?

 

Our perception of an event is what really matters to our mental health.

 

The trauma from the past can be changed, that was my point. It's changed by learning and growing and being present, and that change is realized both in perception and performance.  Six months ago, shooting from the Free Throw Line in basketball, my success was just 58%. After practicing everyday for 30 minutes for six months, my present average is 84%. My poor showing from the past no longer makes me feel as bad as it once did, and my basketball future feels so much brighter.

 

I just think her statement is a little abstract, but I enjoy semantics; it's all we have with which to communicate.

 

Everyone has the capacity to create a present and a future that is not completely dominated by the deep past- we do this by creating an improved near past.

[Xanazul]

Good morning TM
Well done.
I believe that sentences intended to reach a large majority (as those contained in books for self help) may possibly sacrifice accuracy to impact in order to deliver a first message attractive enough to prompt people to read and I guess that was probably Saakvitne's intention, or not...
I have only read a paper by her were she focusses on vicarious trauma, the trauma that can be suffered by therapist in their daily work with traumatized people. Quite interesting although no totally fitted what I was looking for.
Take care.

[thismoment]

Hi Xanazul

I've often wondered how psychologists deal with 'vicarious trauma'. To be effective, surely the therapist must engage to the degree required to comprehend the patient's anguish. Yet I understand that we are a little vulnerable when we open our minds with compassion.

Take care.

[AnotherMind]

Hi every one. I've been for two years on 60 mg cymbalta with almost no side effects. It worked OK (along with therapy and the improving of my life circumstances) to pull me out of both a terrible depression and an extreme anxiety. I was not depressed or anxious any more, so last september I decided that was time to live by myself again plus I was longing for the recovery of my sexual life wich cymbalta took enterely away, and went from 60 to 30 along 4 weeks: Blood pressure raised moderately+intense sweting (I am 61, menopausia 6 years ago with no symptoms)+ once in a while breath shortness and chest pain+body aches.
In february I started to wean off from 30 mg: Hypertension crisis+intense chest pain (feeling as if going to have a heart attack)+more sweting+body aches all over+feeling like fever+moments of intense painful sadness or panic. But, however hellish as this is, what scares me to death is if the possibility that this is depression and anxiety coming back. Someone had the same experience and is OK now? Hope please!!!

Hi there

Reassured to find your post as I'm at day 7 of weaning off and yes - terrible, terrible chest pain and shortness of breath (I am asthmatic, and it has worsened slightly as I've decreased my dose). Also sweating & feverish sporadically + body aches and jaw grinding. Sounds like we have had a simialr withdrawal experience. How long did the chest pains last for you? Are you clear of these symptoms now?

Hope it has all gone well for you.

 

Thankyou

[Xanazul]

First of all you need to be sure that your chest pain in not related to a heart condition (I did that because I am physicians myself, but have checked with other colleagues as well). Also if you are astmathic I need to tell you that my breath shortness, was the consecuence of a not great but significant bronchospasm that was documented with spirometry. It has almost completely disappeared (12 weeks after)

Now, I need to ask you about the way you have weaned off. For Cymbalta anything different from counting beads (you can find how to do this in many post in this forum) is cold turkey. And, cold turkey is a hard, stressful process that may put you in some danger of having an asthmatic crisis, which as you know are very stress dependent.
If you did CT withdraw and being only 7 days off, I believe the wiser for you will be to go back to the dose where you did not have symptoms, stabilize and then start weaning off very very slow by the bead counting method stoping any time you feel the symptoms (in special the breath shortness) for a while and ressuming the weaning when you feel OK again.

If you did bead counting I will go back to previous doses anyway and tapper even slowly that you had done. Asthmatic crisis are serious business as I am sure you know and there is not need to do anything that puts you in danger.

You may consider also Mindfulness to cope with your distressed immune system. Gettig trained (8weeks) and practicing afterwords in MBSR (mindfulness based stress reduction) has proven to be (it was first used back in 1990 in the Mass General Hospital, by Jon Kabat-Zinn, a MIT Molecular Biology PhD, so experience has accumulated for 25 years now) very efective for ameliorating an increasing number of stress related conditions as well as depression and anxiety disorders (there are now more than 2000 entries in PubMed about this treatments, and more than 720 hospitals in the US and many other countries have units for training).

Finally, my symptoms have lessened (12 weeks next monday), however some as morning anxiety, muscle pain and depressed mood, I am still dealing with in a daily basis. But I did CT both from Cymbalta and Welbutrin, so may be yours will be a easier and less lasting withdrawal.

Be compassionate to yourself and take much care.

[AnotherMind]

Xanazul - thanks for your considered response.

 

I am counting beads and staying with each dose until I feel stabilised - then I drop another increment.

I had my heart tested three months ago due to another chest pain incident and all is well - it was deemed a reflux/anxiety problem (I'd never had reflux until I began taking Cymbalta for major depressive disorder 5 years ago).

 

The asthma I am monitoring carefully (and my gp knows I am doing this) and taking medication when needed.

Asthma much better today - the chest pain has diminished and Im not struggling to breathe - but I still have this awful sensation of a dry constriction at the base of my esophagus as if I'm on the brink of gagging. It's very painful but Im patiently watching and waiting as it diminishes a little with each day.

 

Coincidently I finished the 8 week mindfulness course a month ago, it was excellent ! I couldnt have stopped Cymbalta without the grounding that mindfulness practice has given me.

 

I have to say my immune system has felt ravaged by Cymbalta - a lot of inflamatory problems have arisen or intensified - skin, bowel, lymph nodes, vulvodynia, joints. Last year the allergies became so severe and depression so intertwined with my bad health that it cost me my job. I'm still reeling I guess - I've decided to stop Cymbalta in order to ascertain whether it is a contributing factor to the cycle of inflamation. The only other meds I take are Symbicort and at Temazepam (intermittently) as I have chronic cycles of insomnia.

 

I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia 3 years ago and I try to manage that with excercise and clean lifestyle - but I have to say that some of the symptoms attributed to fibro have accelerated, presented for the first time or worstened dramatically since Cymbalta. I need to get off it and see if there's improvement - little to loose at this point. At my wits end.

 

Sorry about this rave.

 

Thanks again for your response.

[gail]

Anothermind, good morning,

 

Coincidently I finished the 8 week mindfulness course a month ago, it was excellent ! I couldnt have stopped Cymbalta without the grounding that mindfulness practice has given me.

 

Started this also, a week ago. Cannot believe how the way the mind runs faster than the Concorde. Looking forward everyday to practice.

 

As far as chest pains go, I must say that the first 2 months I kept wondering if my heart would pop out of my chest any given day.

That has passed completely. I attribuate this to anxiety, so I think.

 

Please read Thismoment's reminder about the time it can take to heal from this.

 

 

Good for you for the bead counting, when I was at 15mg, I dropped out completely to 0. Had to because as soon as I swallowed this poison, I would go in full anxiety mode and panic.

 

3 months off, last 3 days were pretty comfortable, anxiety and depression wise. Woke up 3 mornings in a row, feeling the old Gail back, I still have a long way to go, but mindfullness does a lot to help me stable.

 

I do not have fibro, just, well that's mildly said, anxiety and depressive symptoms. Which have been relenting a great deal in the last days.

 

Happy that you have joined us, you will find much wisdom and compassion and love. Many angels in disguise.

[TryinginFL]

Now that  I have heard about the mindfulness training, it appears to be  something that I might like to try!  Is there a charge for this or is it covered by insurance? Also, is it available everywhere?  Living in central FL is like living in another world

 

Thanks for any info...

[gail]

Hello Liz. this can be experienced by simply buying the book.

 

FULL CATASTROPHE LIVING. USING THE WISDOM OF YOUR BODY AND MIND TO FACE STRESS, PAIN AND ILLNESS. Jon Kabat-Zinn.

 

You can do this by yourself. In reality, it is meditation, practicing being in the moment. setting aside moments in the day to concentrate on your breath. You can be surprised to see that our mind runs like a marathon.

 

The same method is used for whatever ailment you suffer from. Indeed, very interesting.

 

Look it up on internet, my explications might be a bit incomplete.

 

On that, I hope you have a good day and again, I love your, God I forgot the word, lets say your picture.

[TryinginFL]

Thanks so much for your quick reply, Gail!  I will check it out - easier to get the book!

 

Hope you are having a "good day"... you are so ready for a whole bunch of them!

 

Thanks again,

Liz

 

ps  I think the word you are looking for is avatar (I definitely understand the short memory thing! )

[Xanazul]

Anothermind,
I believe you are doing all you can do and doing it the right way, so you will feel better soon.
As for Cymbalta, I had not major side effects while I was taking it, but I did experienced kind of a hell when I quitted CT 12 weeks ago. I've done a lot of reading, talked to many colleagues and performed many different test in myself and although I am not in the position to prove it I've come to the conclusion that hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is clearly damaged (fortunately not in an irreversible way, I believe). As you now, cortisol one of the adrenal cortex hormones is an essential piece in the regulation of immune system functions and also in the response to stress, and both of them stress and immune responses are closely intertwined (in fact both are defensive responses of our body to face any interior or exterior event, physical chemical, biological or anything that our mind and body perceive as a threat, that would disturb our mind-body equilibrium:
So, yours and many other people symptoms in this and other forums I've gone through (including forums focussed in venlafaxine, another ssnri), make a lot of sense to me. If I were at the beginning of my career as a biomedical researcher, this would had been I great place to start, for I am sure it would not be too difficult to get some evidences pretty soon.
Some day soon there will be people that will tackle this task, until then, we have ourselves and internet that allows the existence of forums like this that are a great tool for the recovery.
We will all see much better and happier days,

[AnotherMind]

Anothermind,
I believe you are doing all you can do and doing it the right way, so you will feel better soon.
As for Cymbalta, I had not major side effects while I was taking it, but I did experienced kind of a hell when I quitted CT 12 weeks ago. I've done a lot of reading, talked to many colleagues and performed many different test in myself and although I am not in the position to prove it I've come to the conclusion that hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is clearly damaged (fortunately not in an irreversible way, I believe). As you now, cortisol one of the adrenal cortex hormones is an essential piece in the regulation of immune system functions and also in the response to stress, and both of them stress and immune responses are closely intertwined (in fact both are defensive responses of our body to face any interior or exterior event, physical chemical, biological or anything that our mind and body perceive as a threat, that would disturb our mind-body equilibrium:
So, yours and many other people symptoms in this and other forums I've gone through (including forums focussed in venlafaxine, another ssnri), make a lot of sense to me. If I were at the beginning of my career as a biomedical researcher, this would had been I great place to start, for I am sure it would not be too difficult to get some evidences pretty soon.
Some day soon there will be people that will tackle this task, until then, we have ourselves and internet that allows the existence of forums like this that are a great tool for the recovery.
We will all see much better and happier days,

 

A very illuminating post - thankyou. Your conclusion about the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis strongly correlates with the lived experience -

[fishinghat]

There is research that has been done showing the damage to the hypothalamus and amygdala fear and panic circuits.

[AnotherMind]

and is that damage shown to be reversable as Xanazul has suggested? (panicking now - ironically! LOL)

[fishinghat]

While the researchers seem to do a good job in their research one did make the comment that given the areas involved repair is unlikely. First of all their work did NO long-term follow up and even though the brain does heal slowly, repair of damaged neurons is possible. I think it id way to early to say it is permanent. Repair od damage to neurons by benzos has shown to be repairable albeit around 2 years.

[AnotherMind]

Interesting - and given what's emmerging in regards to our knowledge of neuroplasticity,  healing and adaptation are probably more likely trajectories...?

[Wagtail]

Anothermind,
I believe you are doing all you can do and doing it the right way, so you will feel better soon.
As for Cymbalta, I had not major side effects while I was taking it, but I did experienced kind of a hell when I quitted CT 12 weeks ago. I've done a lot of reading, talked to many colleagues and performed many different test in myself and although I am not in the position to prove it I've come to the conclusion that hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis is clearly damaged (fortunately not in an irreversible way, I believe). As you now, cortisol one of the adrenal cortex hormones is an essential piece in the regulation of immune system functions and also in the response to stress, and both of them stress and immune responses are closely intertwined (in fact both are defensive responses of our body to face any interior or exterior event, physical chemical, biological or anything that our mind and body perceive as a threat, that would disturb our mind-body equilibrium:
So, yours and many other people symptoms in this and other forums I've gone through (including forums focussed in venlafaxine, another ssnri), make a lot of sense to me. If I were at the beginning of my career as a biomedical researcher, this would had been I great place to start, for I am sure it would not be too difficult to get some evidences pretty soon.
Some day soon there will be people that will tackle this task, until then, we have ourselves and internet that allows the existence of forums like this that are a great tool for the recovery.
We will all see much better and happier days,

Out of likes again ... I LIKE YOU POSTS ..XANAZUL ...

[AnotherMind]

Has anyone else experienced visual hallucinations on Cymbalta? They plagued me at the beginning - now returning somewhat as I taper off. Also having tremendously awful nightmares and waking up with auditory 'hallucinations'. As you all know so well - this is hard. A long corridor of ghosts.

[FiveNotions]

Yes, AM....I had both....very briefly, in fact, I usually forget to mention them when I list my S/E's....the visuals weren't discernible things...more like colored blobs and shifting fog...at night, when I woke up to go to the bathroom....maybe three or four times, during the first couple of weeks..so, I started sleeping with a light on....the auditory ones happened more often....cymbalta gave me tinnitus, and during the first month or two of withdrawal, instead of the white noise buzzing I usually had (still have, but sooo much less), I'd hear classical music...Renaissance, or Mozart sounding stuff...all in all, relatively bearable....

I never had nightmares, but others here did...on the poison my dreams were incredibly vivid....but always enjoyable....I actually miss not having them now.....

Yes, what you're doing is hard...experiencing the symptoms is hard...and you'll get through this....just deal with a day at a time...a minute, an hour...the time passes, and with it comes the healing...and the noticeable improvements.....right now your body and brain are struggling to adjust to functioning without the poison....you're sort of "along for the ride"....

And you're doing great....you've still got your sense of humor!

[thismoment]

AM & FN

 

During withdrawal I experienced some strange visual illusions, shadows, and movements. I also had doppelgänger dreams.

 

In doppelgänger dreams you encounter yourself, you interact with yourself- speak, argue. That was the first time I ever had dreams of that nature, and it was the first time I ever murdered someone in a dream- I murdered myself- repeatedly, night after night I would kill the doppelgänger me.  None since.

 

I also perceived movement along the edges of my visual field- motion and shadow, like the flow of a robe disappearing around a corner. And that shadow would appear in my peripheral vision several times a week, and soon I sensed (or attached) a personna to that image, and it never frightened me. It still happens from time to time, and I kind of wait for it.

 

A couple of months ago I spent some quiet time in the austere Saint Anne's Church in Jerusalem, and it happened there. I must confess, that did get my heart racing!

[xman]

Yes to the nightmares. I was reflecting this very morning how they are much less vivid and horrid in general. Thankfully. Also the buzzing in my ears and tinnitus like noise is less in severity. I am a little over 3 months post crapalta.

[TryinginFL]

I, too, had those strange peripheral vision things - Dr. agreed that this was part of the withdrawal.  An odd sensation, but definitely not scary.  I had vivid and very strange dreams the first 2-3 weeks, but I wouldn't call them nightmares - just very vivid!

 

Thankfully, I have not suffered any tinnitus.

 

I actually had a very real dream this morning involving someone I have not seen for over 10 yrs and it was very real but not at all scary - just got me to thinking!

[Xanazul]

I had also vivid dreams and once in a while nightmare. Not any more.

[AnotherMind]

Wow - amazing and strangely heartening!

TM Ive been having doppelganger dreams too! - incredible - I've laso had the sense of spillting away while awake, a profound dissociatiation of sorts where I could hear my own voice and observe my thought patterns as if they were emmerging from someone separate.

An FN and GF - my hallucinations are also peripheral, almost like the mind pre-emptively imposing visual data in response to the merest stimuli (although once I saw a 6 foot scarlet parrot standing in my friends lounge room - ) - distracting to say the least!

 

Thank you all again! - I am so grateful that you are all out there - a tribe of Cymbalata survivors.

[FiveNotions]

Wow....these dream and hallucination experiences are mind-blowing.....I don't think this topic has come up while I've been a member here....the doppelgänger ones really amaze me....haven't had one of those....hope I don't.....and the 6 ft tall scarlet parrot....oh my....

The human mind...so vast...so amazing.....

[AnotherMind]

The human mind is totally amazing - on one hand, these symptoms are alarming - on the other they are some incredible insight into the vast and mysterious workings of our minds...!

[thismoment]

It seems the mind won't tolerate a mystery.

The brain seems especially sensitive and hyper-vigilant during withdrawal, but that's also when your vision is aberrant, your hearing is buzzing, and your lips are punch-drunk. When the brain receives partial data via the shaky senses, it strives to de-mystify the event by filling in the gaps with pieces from its memory banks. It colors-in the blank spaces of a fragmented image; it finishes the sentence of a solitary word uttered; and it assigns meaning to a meaningless event.

Some of it is spooky. And it can generate anxiety because we get anxious when we can't trust ourselves- when we think we're losing it even a little bit. So keep a benzo by the bed and confide to your partner when the anxiety begins to rise- put some light on it: anxiety likes to do its work unacknowledged- it luxuriates in the shade of denial. So go ahead and talk about it when it's right there in the room!

[AnotherMind]

It seems the mind won't tolerate a mystery.

The brain seems especially sensitive and hyper-vigilant during withdrawal, but that's also when your vision is aberrant, your hearing is buzzing, and your lips are punch-drunk. When the brain receives partial data via the shaky senses, it strives to de-mystify the event by filling in the gaps with pieces from its memory banks. It colors-in the blank spaces of a fragmented image; it finishes the sentence of a solitary word uttered; and it assigns meaning to a meaningless event.

Some of it is spooky. And it can generate anxiety because we get anxious when we can't trust ourselves- when we think we're losing it even a little bit. So keep a benzo by the bed and confide to your partner when the anxiety begins to rise- put some light on it: anxiety likes to do its work unacknowledged- it luxuriates in the shade of denial. So go ahead and talk about it when it's right there in the room!

 

 

Beautifully said TM - it's so true. It's an insight into the meaning-making faculties - like an over-zealous parent finishing your sentences for you when you're just learning to speak.

[Xanazul]

Twelve weeks off Cymbalta:
Many symptoms gone.
Still remaining:
*Awakening with anxiety heart pounding, sweats and some nausea, though much lessened.
*A panick attack not long lasting and easily endured as a consequence of recently developed quite stressful events.
*Right arm pain (some times pretty bad, but short lasting, kind of zap)
*Moments of fear, same as panick attacks, cause-related.
*Moments of sadness a lot less than few weeks ago.

Improvements:
*HOPE
*Starting to tackle emotional hurt and pain from the past with understanding and without much anxiety.
*Beginning mindfulness training very hopeful that it will be of help for me.
*Started exercising in a daily basis, which I believe it will also be of help.
*HOPE

As always you are a bunch of great people one of the best assets I've in this journey. THANK YOU ALL

[AnotherMind]

A long and complex journey - so good to be charting it this way to gain perspective.

All the best with the Mindfulness Training - it is an amazing tool as you tackle the past, quite transformative.

 

Go well Xanazul.