1191 replies to this topic

[Mxpro32]

Benedryl, melatonin sublingual, trazadone, and the benzos. I also take magnesium, fish oil, and ashwaganda.

[Mxpro32]

I also take an extended release vitamin c at night cause I read it can help with high cortisol and extend sleep

[fishinghat]

Magnesium can cause anxiety and poor sleep in many people.


Of those reporting side effects to the FDA 4.3% report anxiety as a side effect and 3.7% report insomnia. When was the last time you had your magnesium level checked? High magnesium and low calcium are fairly common with Cymbalta withdrawal. Several members tried magnesium supplements and had to stop it.


I don't see much concern with any of the others.

I would strongly urge you to ask your dr for a prescription for hydroxyzine. It does not have a withdrawal, no tolerance, not addictive and is very effective against sleep and anxiety. The minimum dose for sleep is 50 mg an hour before bed.

[frog]

What kind of magnesium do you take? There are several different types. The most common one that you'll find in most stores is magnesium citrate and I'm pretty sure that one is mostly good as a light laxative and not much else lol. My psych nurse had recommended to take magnesium in the evening for relaxation but he specified that it has to be magnesium glycinate 200-400mg. I took it for a short while, not sure if it did anything but then I read that magnesium can potentially increase the blood pressure lowering effects of beta blockers so I stopped taking it. If I'm not mistaken there are a few other types of medication that you have to be mindful to avoid taking within 2 hours of taking magnesium because it can affect the absorption rate. Not sure what they were though. 

 

I tried benadryl for sleep once, it made me feel so weird that my heart rate went through the roof. Needless to say I did not sleep. Melatonin doesn't do anything for me either. It helps me fall asleep but nothing past that. I've read that melatonin isn't that good for insomnia. Its best use case is really to improve circadian rhythm issues like say jet lag. It's not going to do much if you're waking up due to anxiety

[Mxpro32]

I'm taking magnesium chloride. I can try stopping or backing it off and see. How long does it take for magnesium levels in the blood to drop?

[Mxpro32]

Everything I've read about supplemental magnesium is that it helps with stress and sleep.

https://www.google.c...-your-sleep?amp

They also say that you will have diarrhea and other symptoms if your levels are too high

I asked him about hydroxyzine and he said my blood pressure was too low

[Mxpro32]

What about l tryptophan?

[frog]

I read a little bit about magnesium. This is all more biochemist territory, which I am not. I didn't even do that well in chemistry back in high school, but I digress.

From what I understood, magnesium chloride is typically found in nature as a mineral salt. I guess it's actually found in sea water! Magnesium chloride is really well absorbed because it's water soluble so you might be getting quite a bit of extra magnesium from taking it but you probably won't feel relaxation effects unless you were deficient in the first place. Just my guess. 

 

On the other hand magnesium glycinate is a "magnesium amino acid chelate" so the magnesium molecule is bonded to an amino acid molecule (glycine in this case). It's not something that's available in nature and it has to be created in a lab. Glycine has a lot of functions including being a building block of protein creation, but I guess it also helps the body produce serotonin and serotonin helps make melatonin which of course helps with sleep problems. 

 

So it kind of sounds like the magnesium in this case is more of a vehicle to deliver supplemental glycine to the body in a way that helps it be absorbed. And it's the glycine that's helping to improve withdrawal induced problems. I doubt it has a significant impact on withdrawal based sleep problems but it sounds like it'll provide some nice additional support. 

 

 

 

No idea about tryptophan but I thought I remembered FH advising against it before. I think L-theanine/Suntheanine is the one that's worked better for folks in the past

[fishinghat]

Hi you all

Magnesium chloride and oxide are the worst magnesium supplements to take as they are poorly absorbed and very irritating to the stomach. The best forms are the chelated magnesium such as the amino acid magnesium and magnesium glycinate that frog mentioned. Magnesium is a stimulant (that why it causes diarrhea) and should be avoided during withdrawals unless blood tests indicate otherwise. My wife and I have both had issues involving magnesium, mine during withdrawal and her with a cardiac arrhythmia. The doctors involved stressed that you must monitor blood levels of magnesium every year or less if taking a supplement due to the risk of getting too much magnesium. Magnesium competes with calcium in the body and if the balance gets out of whack then a lot of muscle pain, cramps, digestive issues, irratic heart rythms, etc. That is why magnesium and calcium are one of our recommended blood tests (see ebook) during withdrawal due to a lack of electrolyte balance that often develops.


From my personal posts - FH - "I did have my routine blood magnesium drawn a couple weeks ago and it was high. This would explain my low calcium. I have been dropping my magnesium intake a little at a time and repeating the blood test. As I drop it my calcium increases. I am now off the magnesium and hopefully at my next test on the 30th my calcium and magnesium will both be back to normal. This is why I always recommend people who are taking magnesium to have a blood magnesium test run every 6 months."


Posted by Uriel on 06 November 2012 - 08:24 PM
There were other things like my minerals were all messed up so i was on potassium and magnesium . Its amazing what that drug screws around with.


https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/30381673
although the serum duloxetine level was significantly decreased. However, the antidepressant-like effects of a duloxetine reagent were significantly attenuated by the co-administration of magnesium oxide. These results suggest that duloxetine and magnesium oxide directly interact and that such interactions affect the absorption and antidepressant-like effects of duloxetine.


I literallhy have dozens of research articles in my library and all have slightly differen t results
Magnesium chloride has rather low availability and the choride, oxide, hydroxide and sulphate forms are very hard on the stomach. Organic magnesium like glycinate and amino acid chelate are the most readily ansorned. Why so many different results? Because magnesium absorption is effected by nearly all meds, most food, phosphurus, calcium, zinc, copper, vitamin D3, vitamin C, and much much more that is why drs say do not take a supplemnt for magnesium without having a blood test first.


In general no medication should be taken within 2 hours of calcium or magnesium as they effect the absorption of the medication.



Yes, magnesium is a stimulant and can raise blood pressure, interfere with blood pressure meds like beta-blockers and reduce sleep activity.


There are a lot of people who have no success with melatonin and that is mostly due to their particular status on there serotonin production, sun exposure and other factors. For me it has done a wonderful job at 0.3 mg sublingual for sleep and anxiety. That level a dose does not leave me hung over in the morning either. If I wake at 3 AM I can take that dose, be asleep in 15 minutes and still wake up without a hang over. Studies have shown that as doses of melatonin go over 1 ppm it begins to actually interfere with sleep. There are numerous studies showing that melatonin is as effective as the weaker benzos in controlling anxiety but like all meds it works in some and not others. Many members have good luck with it.


That Benadryl reaction you mentioned frog is fairly common. The FDA reports about 10% of those taking the Benadryl which contains Pseudoephedrine have this reaction. One of the issues we have had on this site is people taking Benadryl or other cold/flu/sleep over the counter drugs and not realizing they come in different form. The Benadryl that helps with sleep contains diphenhydramine. One has to be careful what the active ingredient is. In addition ingredients in a certain med may be different in one country compared to another. For example Tylenol cold and flu has totally different ingredients in Canada compared to the Unite States as the drug rules are different in each country.


L-tryptophan and 5htp can be a big help but there withdrawal can be comparable to an antidepressant so I have never been a big fan of swapping one evil for another. lol

[Mxpro32]

The melatonin I have is 2.5 mg lozenges. Which one do you recommend?  What about extended release melatonin?

[fishinghat]

This one has worked well for me.

https://www.amazon.c...e?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I use two to three drops under the tongue but you can go as high as 6 drops if necessary.

[invalidusername]

The melatonin I have is 2.5 mg lozenges. Which one do you recommend?  What about extended release melatonin?

 

Most on the market are the instant release which will send you off to sleep, but should you wake up, it won't help you get back to sleep again as it will be out of your system - that is where the extended release comes in. 

 

You have the option to take another dose of the regular stuff should you wake, but this will start to put your circadian rhythm out. It is not ideal.

 

The extended release was still under patent when I looked, so have you managed to find it somewhere in the US?

 

The only issue with the extended release is that users have reported to feel groggy upon waking.

[Mxpro32]

Yeah, I actually bought some but haven’t tried it

 

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[invalidusername]

"This item does not ship to United Kingdom."

 

Bloody fantastic

[Mxpro32]

Maybe I'll try it tonight. If it works well I'll lie to you so you don't get jealous

[Mxpro32]

The extended release melatonin was a bust. I think I've been making a mistake taking zquill when I wake up in the middle of the night. Apparently it kicks in 2-3 hours after you take it. I've been tired and depressed the next day. I'd probably be better off getting up after 4 hours. I got some lemon balm capsules, and some relora to try. My liquid melatonin came in too. At this point I wish I had my Xanax back as the Klonopin isn't keeping me asleep anyway. At least with the Xanax I could take more and go back to sleep.

[Mxpro32]

My sleep is getting even worse. I feel terrible. I went to sleep about 11:30, then woke up at 2:30. Took some melatonin drops, fell back to sleep about 3:30, woke up about 4:45 and couldn't sleep any more. I feel like my tolerance to the 1mg Klonopin is just getting worse where it barely puts me to sleep (with the trazadone) but doesn't keep me asleep. Would I be better off weening off of it? Not sure I would sleep at all, but I won't be soon anyway, and it will only get worse when I have to quit it. I have another Dr. Appt Friday. I hope I figure something out cause this makes me feel terrible and hopeless.

[fishinghat]

Double edge swird. To me there is little doubt that you have built up tolerance to both the Klonopin as well as the trazadone but to wean off these now could be a disaster as both can have serious withdrawals. You don't need to make your issues even worse.

 

It will be interesting on what the dr recommends.

[Mxpro32]

Will the situation not just get worse if I keep taking them? I'm only on 1mg Klonopin and 50mg trazadone

[fishinghat]

They will simply be like a placebo. No effect. You have not been on them long and many drs would simply say to stop them but that would be a big risk. If the trazadone where to cause you additional withdrawal you could PROBABLY go back on it and be no worse BUT going back on a benzo seldom has any effect. Once in a benzo withdrawal you are USUALLY there until it is over. Only 45% see ANY benefit to reinstating a benzo.
 
How long you been on the Klonopin and is it 1 mg every night?

[Mxpro32]

16 days. Yeah 1mg every night. first 2 nights I didn't sleep, then I slept through the night 3 nights and then it stopped working. I was on .5mg Xanax before bed and when I woke up before. That was actually better. I had something to put me back to sleep

So staying on them longer won't make withdrawals worse, but stopping then can kick off irreversible withdrawals?

[fishinghat]

How long were you on the Xanax?

[Mxpro32]

Around 3 months

[fishinghat]

If your time on benzos was a week or two you might try but at 3 months there would be a significant risk of withdrawal. I tapered off of 3 mg Klonopin once and it took a year of severe suffering,

[Mxpro32]

Would the time on Xanax be a factor? Are there any Xanax withdrawals when switching to Klonopin? Like rebound from Xanax cancelling out the Klonopin?

[fishinghat]

No, both Xanax and Klonopin work on the same gaba receptors in the same way so it is just like being on one benzo for the entire 3 months. In fact Klonopin is even stronger and has a more significant withdrawal. This is an issue that oh so many members had fought. The Cymbalta withdrawal is horrible and they desperately seek help. But once you start putting more drugs intom the system, especially addictive ones, things can ve come worse in a hurry. Both myself and IUN had this issue. I had to come off 6 drugs after my Cymbalta withdrawal and IUN had to deal with as many or more during his time. This is why I strongly suggest alays starting with the non-addictive drugs first like hydroxyzine and clonidine.


I know your dr did not want to try those because they lower blood pressure but so does trazadone and benzos. Anything that calms the body slows the metabolism and reduces blood pressure. Some more than others but the all do.

[Mxpro32]

What am I in for on the Klonopin withdrawals? Months and months?

[fishinghat]

At that dose, 1 mg/day, I would expect 9 months withdrawal with symptoms as bad as 80% of Cymbalta.

 

However there is good news. Using the water titration method you can come off a benzo with little to n ow withdrawal but it would take you about 2 years or maybe a little longer. Surely your dr warned you they were addictive and had a significant withdrawal?  Never mind, I know the answer to that question.

[Mxpro32]

80% as bad? Good God. This is aweful. I still need to get off the lamictal and concerta. What are the withdrawals from those like?

[fishinghat]

Lamictal and concerta both have a lot milder withdrawal than Cymbalta and benzos. You need to get your mind set right now that this will all take a long time. I gad 6 to come off of and it took me 7 years so far and I am just now approaching the end of the last one. It took me over a year to stabilize off the Cymbalta withdrawal and then I withdrew of the others one at a time in such a slow manner that I could still function in life and feel half way decent. This is one reason that so many drs say 'You will be on antidepressants the rest of your life.' BUT you can do this. It takes a lot of patience because you have to go so slow in order to have a decent quality of life.